From: Andrew Kirilenko Date: 2016-01-27T18:21:47+03:00 Subject: [ruby-core:73540] Re: [Ruby trunk - Misc #12004] Code of Conduct --===============0428521332== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c033c68450f27052a525c0b --94eb2c033c68450f27052a525c0b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just in case - Linus and co made right decision - http://jimlynch.com/linux-articles/did-linus-protect-the-linux-foundation-f= rom-the-social-justice-warriors/ On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Andrew Kirilenko < andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote: > >This is a deflection. The problem that some of us are calling out is tha= t > *you may not see the problems* because you are not attuned to them. I > rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned to them naturally= (this is > something I have to work at because I reflect the majority in many > different ways). > > So go and show us examples of someone being treated differently due to > his/her/it sexual, religious or any other views/habits/believes by Ruby > community. While you are at it, I'd like to remind you about Elia still > being harassed by this fine group due to his believes. Problem with this > code of conduct is that it'll reduce freedoms and rights of people not > sharing your version of reality. > > >See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there are women who code. But > there are subtle disincentives to contribution for a lot of women, and > comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen anything useful, s= o nothing she=E2=80=99s > done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are one such disincentive. > > And this is words juggling. Yes, there are women who code, no one is > arguing with this. Some of them are good at it, some of them are bad - ju= st > like men. I was talking about particular case - Coraline - and I would ha= ve > asked same questions if she 'd be male or undecided or whatever. For what= I > care you are all letters on my display and I treat you all equally. > > Next statements are just statistics derived from my 20 years of experienc= e > as engineer (working with different teams in different counties) and some > publicly available data. In any team, I worked with, women/men are ~ > 1/10.If you'll look at github and look for accounts with photos on them - > like 90% of them will be of caucasian or asian male. I'm not trying to > imply anything from these facts (e.g. best engineer I worked with during = my > career was actually black (and I don't care about USA PC - we call black > people "black" here and everybody, including black people, are OK with > that)), just something for you to think about. > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Austin Ziegler > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Andrew Kirilenko < >> andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> 1. While I am using Ruby for past 15 years literally on daily basis, I >>> am not affilated with the Ruby project in any way. What I will state be= low >>> should be interpreted as my personal opinion and should not be used aga= inst >>> Ruby project in any form. >>> 2. I have nothing against people with any sexual habbits. Personally, I >>> have FtM friend and quite few gay friends. I respect them for what they= do >>> in their professional life and/or other areas we share. I can't care le= ss >>> for what they do in their bedrooms. It's their life, they can do whatev= er >>> they want with it. >>> >> 3. I separate my professional activities from my other activities. I'd >>> work with trans, gay, child molester, serial killer, even Hitler himsel= f if >>> they will add value to the project, I'm working on. >>> >> >> A couple of quick notes, starting here: your statement here is something >> that reflects a systematic cultural bias. In general, people of minority >> status cannot separate their minority status(es) from their professional >> work any more than people of majority status can separate their majority >> status(es) from their professional work. It may seem like someone who is= in >> a majority position can do so, but that is only because their majority >> status *permeates the culture* within which they work. Understand, I am >> *not* passing judgement on this systematic cultural bias, merely calling= it >> out as an explicit thing. People who are minorities are *consistently* >> reminded of that minority status on a regular basis without anyone even >> trying. >> >> >>> Does Ruby project need this code of conduct? Definitely no. I interacte= d >>> with community (mostly @ IRC channel) and it was ALWAYS nice, welcoming= and >>> helpful. No exceptions. Even matz answered my (not always properly >>> formulated, I must admit) questions several times. No one asked anythin= g >>> about my sex, age, skin color, nationality, religious believes or anyth= ing >>> else not related to the problem in question. I simply don't see problem >>> which should be solved with this code of conduct. >>> >> >> This is a deflection. The problem that some of us are calling out is tha= t >> *you may not see the problems* because you are not attuned to them. I >> rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned to them naturall= y (this is >> something I have to work at because I reflect the majority in many >> different ways). >> >> >>> Now let's look at Coraline's github. What we see there? Right, code of >>> conduct itself and few forks and hello worlds. Did she added anything >>> useful to community? Maybe, but not for me. Rest of the guys and gils f= rom >>> this fine group? I forced myself to check 5 more accounts (in order of >>> appearing in (in)famous opal #941) - all the same - endless hello world= s >>> and playgrounds. Nothing even remotely useful. Of course, my opinion is >>> biased by Coraline's personality here, so I might be totally wrong. So, >>> Coraline, show us your code and I'll appologize to you personally. And = no, >>> statements of your friends "Coraline is one of the most seasoned develo= pers >>> I seen" or "Coraline is panelist of ruby rogues" (I don't even understa= nd >>> what does it mean) does not count. >>> >> >> See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there are women who code. But >> there are subtle disincentives to contribution for a lot of women, and >> comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen anything useful, = so nothing she=E2=80=99s >> done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are one such disincentive. >> >> If you want a few examples from the Ruby community, look at: >> >> * mperham/sidekiq >> * rails/rails (or rails/rails.github.com) >> * rspec/rspec >> >> I=E2=80=99ve only added it to mime-types/ruby-mime-types so far, but wil= l be >> adding it to halostatue/diff-lcs, halostatue/minitar, and halostatue/col= or >> in the coming months (among others as I make modifications). >> >> I=E2=80=99m not looking to make anyone believe what I believe. What I=E2= =80=99m telling >> people is that as long as I=E2=80=99m running those projects and maintai= ning those >> gems, I will be holding both myself and anyone who contributes to the >> projects to a high standard designed to combat harassment and create a m= ore >> welcoming environment. >> >> -a >> -- >> Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 halostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatu= e.ca >> http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halostatue >> >> >> Unsubscribe: >> >> >> > --94eb2c033c68450f27052a525c0b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just in case - Linus and co made right decision -=C2=A0http://jimlynch.com/linux-article= s/did-linus-protect-the-linux-foundation-from-the-social-justice-warriors/<= /a>

On Wed, = Jan 27, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Andrew Kirilenko <andrew.kirilenko@gmai= l.com> wrote:
>This is a deflection. The problem that some of us are cal= ling out is that *you may not see the problems* because you are not attuned= to them. I rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned to them= naturally (this is something I have to work at because I reflect the major= ity in many different ways).

So go and show us examples of someo= ne being treated differently due to his/her/it sexual, religious or any oth= er views/habits/believes by Ruby community. While you are at it, I'd li= ke to remind you about Elia still being harassed by this fine group due to = his believes. Problem with this code of conduct is that it'll reduce fr= eedoms and rights of people not sharing your version of reality.=C2=A0

>See, this is part of th= e problem. Yes, there are women who code. But there are subtle disincentive= s to contribution for a lot of women, and comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI= haven=E2=80=99t seen anything useful, so nothing she=E2=80=99s done must b= e useful=E2=80=9D) are one such disincentive.

And this is = words juggling. Yes, there are women who code, no one is arguing with this.= Some of them are good at it, some of them are bad - just like men. I was t= alking about particular case - Coraline - and I would have asked same quest= ions if she 'd be male or undecided or whatever. For what I care you ar= e all letters on my display and I treat you all equally.

Next statement= s are just statistics derived from my 20 years of experience as engineer (w= orking with different teams in different counties) and some publicly availa= ble data. In any team, I worked with, women/men are ~ 1/10.If you'll lo= ok at github and look for accounts with photos on them - like 90% of them w= ill be of caucasian or asian male. I'm not trying to imply anything fro= m these facts (e.g. best engineer I worked with during my career was actual= ly black (and I don't care about USA PC - we call black people "bl= ack" here and everybody, including black people, are OK with that)), j= ust something for you to think about.

On Wed, Ja= n 27, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Andrew Kirilenko <andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote:
1. While I am using Ruby for past 15 years literally on dail= y basis, I am not affilated with the Ruby project in any way. What I will s= tate below should be interpreted as my personal opinion and should not be u= sed against Ruby project in any form.
2. I have nothing against p= eople with any sexual habbits. Personally, I have FtM friend and quite few = gay friends. I respect them for what they do in their professional life and= /or other areas we share. I can't care less for what they do in their b= edrooms. It's their life, they can do whatever they want with it.
=
3. I s= eparate my professional activities from my other activities. I'd work w= ith trans, gay, child molester, serial killer, even Hitler himself if they = will add value to the project, I'm working on.

A couple of quick notes, starting here: yo= ur statement here is something that reflects a systematic cultural bias. In= general, people of minority status cannot separate their minority status(e= s) from their professional work any more than people of majority status can= separate their majority status(es) from their professional work. It may se= em like someone who is in a majority position can do so, but that is only b= ecause their majority status *permeates the culture* within which they work= . Understand, I am *not* passing judgement on this systematic cultural bias= , merely calling it out as an explicit thing. People who are minorities are= *consistently* reminded of that minority status on a regular basis without= anyone even trying.
=C2=A0
Does Ruby project need this code of conduct? Definitely = no. I interacted with community (mostly @ IRC channel) and it was ALWAYS ni= ce, welcoming and helpful. No exceptions. Even matz answered my (not always= properly formulated, I must admit) questions several times. No one asked a= nything about my sex, age, skin color, nationality, religious believes or a= nything else not related to the problem in question. I simply don't see= problem which should be solved with this code of conduct.
<= /div>

This is a deflection. The prob= lem that some of us are calling out is that *you may not see the problems* = because you are not attuned to them. I rarely see the problems because I=E2= =80=99m not attuned to them naturally (this is something I have to work at = because I reflect the majority in many different ways).
=C2= =A0
Now let'= ;s look at Coraline's github. What we see there? Right, code of conduct= itself and few forks and hello worlds. Did she added anything useful to co= mmunity? Maybe, but not for me. Rest of the guys and gils from this fine gr= oup? I forced myself to check 5 more accounts (in order of appearing in (in= )famous opal #941) - all the same - endless hello worlds and playgrounds. N= othing even remotely useful. Of course, my opinion is biased by Coraline= 9;s personality here, so I might be totally wrong. So, Coraline, show us yo= ur code and I'll appologize to you personally. And no, statements of yo= ur friends "Coraline is one of the most seasoned developers I seen&quo= t; or "Coraline is panelist of ruby rogues" (I don't even und= erstand what does it mean) does not count.

See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there a= re women who code. But there are subtle disincentives to contribution for a= lot of women, and comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen a= nything useful, so nothing she=E2=80=99s done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are = one such disincentive.

If you want a few examples = from the Ruby community, look at:

* mperham/sideki= q
* rails/rails (or rails/rails.github.com)
* rspec/rspec
=
I=E2=80=99ve only added it to mime-types/ruby-mime-types so = far, but will be adding it to halostatue/diff-lcs, halostatue/minitar, and = halostatue/color in the coming months (among others as I make modifications= ).

I=E2=80=99m not looking to make anyone believe = what I believe. What I=E2=80=99m telling people is that as long as I=E2=80= =99m running those projects and maintaining those gems, I will be holding b= oth myself and anyone who contributes to the projects to a high standard de= signed to combat harassment and create a more welcoming environment.
<= span>

-a
--


Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-core-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe= >
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/m= ailman/options/ruby-core>



--94eb2c033c68450f27052a525c0b-- --===============0428521332== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Unsubscribe: --===============0428521332==--