From: Austin Ziegler Date: 2016-01-29T09:43:32-05:00 Subject: [ruby-core:73580] Re: [Ruby trunk - Misc #12004] Code of Conduct --===============1449148587== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e23ca589ee4052a7a1013 --001a113e23ca589ee4052a7a1013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Andrew Kirilenko < andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote: > >Andrew, please stop digging. Your hole is only getting deeper. > I'd do what I see fit it this situation, thank you. And I'd do whatever i= t > takes to protect things I care about (and I do care about Ruby). > So you=E2=80=99ll destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and rac= ism to save Ruby. Brilliant. >1. You are trying, once again, to derail the conversation with something > (in this case, the =E2=80=9CNo Code of Conduct=E2=80=9D) that does not ac= tually address any > of the *very real* problems we have seen presented in the last two weeks. > > These problems arrived here with Coraline and her SJW friends for the > first time within 20 years. If I'm wrong - just show me example of someon= e > being treated differently due to his/her race, skin color, sex or whateve= r > else not related to technical problem in question. Don't try to fix thing= s > which are not broken. > You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go through the last = fifteen years of the mailing list archives, but you are also artificially limiting the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusionary tactics (e.g., person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99t acceptable because = they are in class C). This is about spaces that are hostile to different classes of people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly expressing opinions that peopl= e of class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about more subtle harassment. It=E2=80=99s= also about (and I=E2=80=99ve said this before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core commu= nity has not had this problem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behind the Ruby core community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle harassment is not welcome. So, no, these problems did not arrive with Coraline and her =E2=80=9CSJW=E2= =80=9D friends. These problems have existed for a very long time and are just now being called out as unacceptable. Gogaruco had a situation in =E2=80=9909 that highlighted the need for Codes of Conduct in general and in specific. > >2. You cited a known hate-monger, Theodore Beale. Mr Beale (aka =E2=80= =9CVox > Day=E2=80=9D) has the dubious distinction of being the only person kicked= out of > the SFWA for abuse of an SFWA platform to spread a racist, misogynistic > message about another SFWA author. All of this weakens any argument you > might actually have. (If you doubt me, read PZ Meyers on Beale.) > > Known by whom? > Pretty much anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* ge= t to say that someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being fully civ= ilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D without *legitim= ately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2=80=9Ca few acid-b= urned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and claim that one isn=E2= =80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in support of your argument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as citing that known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold would diminish that argument). > And please, interpret Coraline's "Thoughts on leaving technical mgmt of > Ruby to Matz and delegating community mgmt to a separate org?" to me. Tha= nk > you. > That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expressed concern about having to spend too m= uch time on community management with a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of Ruby, he could choose to delegate community management to other people he trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or Ruby, it is about finding things tha= t can work. And yes, if there *were* a separate organization, I would personally want to make sure that some of the more rational opponents to CoCs in Ruby were involved in the organization so as to protect against the abuses about which they have indicated fear. -a --=20 Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 halostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue.c= a http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halostatue --001a113e23ca589ee4052a7a1013 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Andrew Kirilenko <andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote:
>Andrew, please stop diggin= g. Your hole is only getting deeper.
I'd do what I see fit it this situation, thank you. And I'= ;d do whatever it takes to protect things I care about (and I do care about= Ruby).

So you=E2= =80=99ll destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and racism to sa= ve Ruby. Brilliant.

<= span class=3D"">
>1. You are trying= , once again, to derail the conversation with something (in this case, the = =E2=80=9CNo Code of Conduct=E2=80=9D) that does not actually address any of= the *very real* problems we have seen presented in the last two weeks.

These problems arrived here with Coraline and her SJW frien= ds for the first time within 20 years. If I'm wrong - just show me exam= ple of someone being treated differently due to his/her race, skin color, s= ex or whatever else not related to technical problem in question. Don't= try to fix things which are not broken.

You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go t= hrough the last fifteen years of the mailing list archives, but you are als= o artificially limiting the discussion. This is not just about explicit exc= lusionary tactics (e.g., person A telling person B that their code isn=E2= =80=99t acceptable because they are in class C). This is about spaces that = are hostile to different classes of people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regu= larly expressing opinions that people of class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s a= bout more subtle harassment. It=E2=80=99s also about (and I=E2=80=99ve said= this before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core community has not had = this problem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behind the Ruby= core community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle harassment = is not welcome.

So, no, these problems did not arr= ive with Coraline and her =E2=80=9CSJW=E2=80=9D friends. These problems hav= e existed for a very long time and are just now being called out as unaccep= table. Gogaruco had a situation in =E2=80=9909 that highlighted the need fo= r Codes of Conduct in general and in specific.
=C2=A0
>= ;2.=C2=A0 You cited a known hate-monger, Theodore Beale. Mr Beale (aka =E2= =80=9CVox Day=E2=80=9D) has the dubious distinction of being the only perso= n kicked out of the SFWA for abuse of an SFWA platform to spread a racist, = misogynistic message about another SFWA author. All of this weakens any arg= ument you might actually have. (If you doubt me, read PZ Meyers on Beale.)<= br>

Known by whom?

Pretty much= anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* get to say th= at someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being fully civil= ized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D without *le= gitimately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2=80=9C= a few acid-burned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and cla= im that one isn=E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in sup= port of your argument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as= citing that known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold w= ould diminish that argument).
=C2=A0
And please, interpret Coraline's = "Thoughts on leaving technical mgmt of Ruby to Matz and delegating com= munity mgmt to a separate org?" to me. Thank you.

That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expressed concern= about having to spend too much time on community management with a CoC in = place. As he *is* the BDfL of Ruby, he could choose to delegate community m= anagement to other people he trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or= Ruby, it is about finding things that can work. And yes, if there *were* a= separate organization, I would personally want to make sure that some of t= he more rational opponents to CoCs in Ruby were involved in the organizatio= n so as to protect against the abuses about which they have indicated fear.=

-a
--
Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 halostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue.ca
http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80= =A2 http://twit= ter.com/halostatue
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