[ruby-core:73581] Re: [Ruby trunk - Misc #12004] Code of Conduct

>So you=E2=80=99ll destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and ra=
cism to save
Ruby. Brilliant.

 It's not me who is raiding open source project with sexist and racist
ideas but Coraline + SJWs. If you can't see why their ideas are sexist
and/or racist, I can't help you with this, I can only give you hint -
racism is not about treating black people differently, it's about treating
some one by his race, no matter what it is. Same with sexism - it's not
about treating women differently, it's about treating anyone differently by
his gender. Also, go and explain me how these famous "women outreach
programs" are not sexists? They directly imply that women are not equal to
men and need different treatment.

>You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go through the last=
 fifteen
years of the mailing list archives, but you are also artificially limiting
the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusionary tactics (e.g.,
person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99t acceptable because =
they are
in class C). This is about spaces that are hostile to different classes of
people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly expressing opinions that peopl=
e of
class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about more subtle harassment. It=E2=80=99s=
 also about (and
I=E2=80=99ve said this before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core commu=
nity has
not had this problem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behind
the Ruby core community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle
harassment is not welcome.

I might be wrong. Show me example(s).

>Pretty much anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* g=
et to
say that someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being fully
civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D withou=
t
*legitimately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2=80=
=9Ca few
acid-burned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and claim tha=
t one
isn=E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in support of your
argument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as citing that
known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold would diminish
that argument).

I'm not racist and I don't share your opinion. And I'm not alone. "Pretty
much everyone in USA (or ex-USA)", yes, probably, but world doesn't end
with USA and Canada. And I really doubt you know anything about known
humanitarian J Stalin. My country suffered due to his actions, though he
had some good ideas and took some right actions. Same with another known
humanitarian, Hitler. No matter what, if some ideas, they believed in, are
good it doesn't make them any less good due to these guys being bad.

>That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expressed concern about having to spend too =
much
time on community management with a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of
Ruby, he could choose to delegate community management to other people he
trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or Ruby, it is about finding th=
ings
that can work. And yes, if there *were* a separate organization, I would
personally want to make sure that some of the more rational opponents to
CoCs in Ruby were involved in the organization so as to protect against the
abuses about which they have indicated fear.

There is simple solution for that. No code of conduct - no problem of matz
spending time on enforcing it and solving disputes. And I have yet to see
any example of people being treated differently due to their
race/sex/whatever in Ruby community.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Austin Ziegler <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Andrew Kirilenko <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> >Andrew, please stop digging. Your hole is only getting deeper.
>> I'd do what I see fit it this situation, thank you. And I'd do whatever
>> it takes to protect things I care about (and I do care about Ruby).
>>
>
> So you=E2=80=99ll destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and r=
acism to save
> Ruby. Brilliant.
>
> >1. You are trying, once again, to derail the conversation with something
>> (in this case, the =E2=80=9CNo Code of Conduct=E2=80=9D) that does not a=
ctually address any
>> of the *very real* problems we have seen presented in the last two weeks=
.
>>
>> These problems arrived here with Coraline and her SJW friends for the
>> first time within 20 years. If I'm wrong - just show me example of someo=
ne
>> being treated differently due to his/her race, skin color, sex or whatev=
er
>> else not related to technical problem in question. Don't try to fix thin=
gs
>> which are not broken.
>>
>
> You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go through the las=
t fifteen
> years of the mailing list archives, but you are also artificially limitin=
g
> the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusionary tactics (e.g=
.,
> person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99t acceptable becaus=
e they are
> in class C). This is about spaces that are hostile to different classes o=
f
> people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly expressing opinions that peo=
ple of
> class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about more subtle harassment. It=E2=80=
=99s also about (and
> I=E2=80=99ve said this before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core com=
munity has
> not had this problem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behin=
d
> the Ruby core community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle
> harassment is not welcome.
>
> So, no, these problems did not arrive with Coraline and her =E2=80=9CSJW=
=E2=80=9D friends.
> These problems have existed for a very long time and are just now being
> called out as unacceptable. Gogaruco had a situation in =E2=80=9909 that
> highlighted the need for Codes of Conduct in general and in specific.
>
>
>> >2.  You cited a known hate-monger, Theodore Beale. Mr Beale (aka =E2=80=
=9CVox
>> Day=E2=80=9D) has the dubious distinction of being the only person kicke=
d out of
>> the SFWA for abuse of an SFWA platform to spread a racist, misogynistic
>> message about another SFWA author. All of this weakens any argument you
>> might actually have. (If you doubt me, read PZ Meyers on Beale.)
>>
>> Known by whom?
>>
>
> Pretty much anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* =
get to
> say that someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being ful=
ly
> civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D with=
out
> *legitimately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2=
=80=9Ca few
> acid-burned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and claim t=
hat one
> isn=E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in support of yo=
ur
> argument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as citing tha=
t
> known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold would dimini=
sh
> that argument).
>
>
>> And please, interpret Coraline's "Thoughts on leaving technical mgmt of
>> Ruby to Matz and delegating community mgmt to a separate org?" to me. Th=
ank
>> you.
>>
>
> That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expressed concern about having to spend too=
 much
> time on community management with a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of
> Ruby, he could choose to delegate community management to other people he
> trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or Ruby, it is about finding =
things
> that can work. And yes, if there *were* a separate organization, I would
> personally want to make sure that some of the more rational opponents to
> CoCs in Ruby were involved in the organization so as to protect against t=
he
> abuses about which they have indicated fear.
>
> -a
> --
> Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 [e-mail] =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue=
.ca
> http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halostatue
>
>
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