From: Andrew Kirilenko Date: 2016-01-29T18:24:42+03:00 Subject: [ruby-core:73581] Re: [Ruby trunk - Misc #12004] Code of Conduct --===============1285840914== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c071b6c64e139052a7aa260 --94eb2c071b6c64e139052a7aa260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >So you=E2=80=99ll destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and ra= cism to save Ruby. Brilliant. It's not me who is raiding open source project with sexist and racist ideas but Coraline + SJWs. If you can't see why their ideas are sexist and/or racist, I can't help you with this, I can only give you hint - racism is not about treating black people differently, it's about treating some one by his race, no matter what it is. Same with sexism - it's not about treating women differently, it's about treating anyone differently by his gender. Also, go and explain me how these famous "women outreach programs" are not sexists? They directly imply that women are not equal to men and need different treatment. >You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go through the last= fifteen years of the mailing list archives, but you are also artificially limiting the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusionary tactics (e.g., person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99t acceptable because = they are in class C). This is about spaces that are hostile to different classes of people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly expressing opinions that peopl= e of class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about more subtle harassment. It=E2=80=99s= also about (and I=E2=80=99ve said this before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core commu= nity has not had this problem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behind the Ruby core community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle harassment is not welcome. I might be wrong. Show me example(s). >Pretty much anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* g= et to say that someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being fully civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D withou= t *legitimately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2=80= =9Ca few acid-burned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and claim tha= t one isn=E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in support of your argument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as citing that known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold would diminish that argument). I'm not racist and I don't share your opinion. And I'm not alone. "Pretty much everyone in USA (or ex-USA)", yes, probably, but world doesn't end with USA and Canada. And I really doubt you know anything about known humanitarian J Stalin. My country suffered due to his actions, though he had some good ideas and took some right actions. Same with another known humanitarian, Hitler. No matter what, if some ideas, they believed in, are good it doesn't make them any less good due to these guys being bad. >That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expressed concern about having to spend too = much time on community management with a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of Ruby, he could choose to delegate community management to other people he trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or Ruby, it is about finding th= ings that can work. And yes, if there *were* a separate organization, I would personally want to make sure that some of the more rational opponents to CoCs in Ruby were involved in the organization so as to protect against the abuses about which they have indicated fear. There is simple solution for that. No code of conduct - no problem of matz spending time on enforcing it and solving disputes. And I have yet to see any example of people being treated differently due to their race/sex/whatever in Ruby community. On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Austin Ziegler wrote: > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Andrew Kirilenko < > andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >Andrew, please stop digging. Your hole is only getting deeper. >> I'd do what I see fit it this situation, thank you. And I'd do whatever >> it takes to protect things I care about (and I do care about Ruby). >> > > So you=E2=80=99ll destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and r= acism to save > Ruby. Brilliant. > > >1. You are trying, once again, to derail the conversation with something >> (in this case, the =E2=80=9CNo Code of Conduct=E2=80=9D) that does not a= ctually address any >> of the *very real* problems we have seen presented in the last two weeks= . >> >> These problems arrived here with Coraline and her SJW friends for the >> first time within 20 years. If I'm wrong - just show me example of someo= ne >> being treated differently due to his/her race, skin color, sex or whatev= er >> else not related to technical problem in question. Don't try to fix thin= gs >> which are not broken. >> > > You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go through the las= t fifteen > years of the mailing list archives, but you are also artificially limitin= g > the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusionary tactics (e.g= ., > person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99t acceptable becaus= e they are > in class C). This is about spaces that are hostile to different classes o= f > people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly expressing opinions that peo= ple of > class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about more subtle harassment. It=E2=80= =99s also about (and > I=E2=80=99ve said this before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core com= munity has > not had this problem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behin= d > the Ruby core community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle > harassment is not welcome. > > So, no, these problems did not arrive with Coraline and her =E2=80=9CSJW= =E2=80=9D friends. > These problems have existed for a very long time and are just now being > called out as unacceptable. Gogaruco had a situation in =E2=80=9909 that > highlighted the need for Codes of Conduct in general and in specific. > > >> >2. You cited a known hate-monger, Theodore Beale. Mr Beale (aka =E2=80= =9CVox >> Day=E2=80=9D) has the dubious distinction of being the only person kicke= d out of >> the SFWA for abuse of an SFWA platform to spread a racist, misogynistic >> message about another SFWA author. All of this weakens any argument you >> might actually have. (If you doubt me, read PZ Meyers on Beale.) >> >> Known by whom? >> > > Pretty much anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* = get to > say that someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being ful= ly > civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D with= out > *legitimately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2= =80=9Ca few > acid-burned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and claim t= hat one > isn=E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in support of yo= ur > argument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as citing tha= t > known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold would dimini= sh > that argument). > > >> And please, interpret Coraline's "Thoughts on leaving technical mgmt of >> Ruby to Matz and delegating community mgmt to a separate org?" to me. Th= ank >> you. >> > > That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expressed concern about having to spend too= much > time on community management with a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of > Ruby, he could choose to delegate community management to other people he > trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or Ruby, it is about finding = things > that can work. And yes, if there *were* a separate organization, I would > personally want to make sure that some of the more rational opponents to > CoCs in Ruby were involved in the organization so as to protect against t= he > abuses about which they have indicated fear. > > -a > -- > Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 halostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue= .ca > http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halostatue > > > Unsubscribe: > > > --94eb2c071b6c64e139052a7aa260 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>So you=E2=80=99ll dest= roy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and racism to save Ruby. Bril= liant.

=C2=A0It's not me who is raiding open s= ource project with sexist and racist ideas but Coraline + SJWs. If you can&= #39;t see why their ideas are sexist and/or racist, I can't help you wi= th this, I can only give you hint - racism is not about treating black peop= le differently, it's about treating some one by his race, no matter wha= t it is. Same with sexism - it's not about treating women differently, = it's about treating anyone differently by his gender. Also, go and expl= ain me how these famous "women outreach programs" are not sexists= ? They directly imply that women are not equal to men and need different tr= eatment.

>You a= re wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go through the last fifte= en years of the mailing list archives, but you are also artificially limiti= ng the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusionary tactics (e.= g., person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99t acceptable beca= use they are in class C). This is about spaces that are hostile to differen= t classes of people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly expressing opinio= ns that people of class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about more subtle harass= ment. It=E2=80=99s also about (and I=E2=80=99ve said this before) signallin= g that, even if the Ruby core community has not had this problem exhibited = prior to this discussion, the people behind the Ruby core community *care e= nough* to make it clear that such subtle harassment is not welcome.

I might be wrong. Show me example(s).
>Pretty much anyone who isn= =E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* get to say that someone of a= difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being fully civilized for the ob= vious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D without *legitimately* bei= ng called a racist. One does *not* get to say that =E2=80=9Ca few acid-burn= ed faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80=9D and claim that one isn= =E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing him in support of your ar= gument *harms* any argument you could possibly make (just as citing that kn= own humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position you hold would diminish t= hat argument).

I'm not racist and I don't = share your opinion. And I'm not alone. "Pretty much everyone in US= A (or ex-USA)", yes, probably, but world doesn't end with USA and = Canada. And I really doubt you know anything about known humanitarian J Sta= lin. My country suffered due to his actions, though he had some good ideas = and took some right actions. Same with another known humanitarian, Hitler. = No matter what, if some ideas, they believed in, are good it doesn't ma= ke them any less good due to these guys being bad.

>That=E2=80=99s easy. Matz has expresse= d concern about having to spend too much time on community management with = a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of Ruby, he could choose to delegate co= mmunity management to other people he trusts. This isn=E2=80=99t about a ta= keover or Ruby, it is about finding things that can work. And yes, if there= *were* a separate organization, I would personally want to make sure that = some of the more rational opponents to CoCs in Ruby were involved in the or= ganization so as to protect against the abuses about which they have indica= ted fear.

There is simple solution for that. No co= de of conduct - no problem of matz spending time on enforcing it and solvin= g disputes. And I have yet to see any example of people being treated diffe= rently due to their race/sex/whatever in Ruby community.
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Austin Ziegler= <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:40 AM, = Andrew Kirilenko <andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote= :
>Andrew, please stop digging. Your hole is only getting deeper.
I'= ;d do what I see fit it this situation, thank you. And I'd do whatever = it takes to protect things I care about (and I do care about Ruby).<= /div>

So you=E2=80=99ll= destroy Ruby=E2=80=99s community with open sexism and racism to save Ruby.= Brilliant.

>1. You are trying,= once again, to derail the conversation with something (in this case, the = =E2=80=9CNo Code of Conduct=E2=80=9D) that does not actually address any of= the *very real* problems we have seen presented in the last two weeks.

=
These problems arrived here with Coraline and her SJW friends for the = first time within 20 years. If I'm wrong - just show me example of some= one being treated differently due to his/her race, skin color, sex or whate= ver else not related to technical problem in question. Don't try to fix= things which are not broken.

=
You are wrong. What I don=E2=80=99t have time to do is go throu= gh the last fifteen years of the mailing list archives, but you are also ar= tificially limiting the discussion. This is not just about explicit exclusi= onary tactics (e.g., person A telling person B that their code isn=E2=80=99= t acceptable because they are in class C). This is about spaces that are ho= stile to different classes of people. It=E2=80=99s more person A regularly = expressing opinions that people of class C are lesser. It=E2=80=99s about m= ore subtle harassment. It=E2=80=99s also about (and I=E2=80=99ve said this = before) signalling that, even if the Ruby core community has not had this p= roblem exhibited prior to this discussion, the people behind the Ruby core = community *care enough* to make it clear that such subtle harassment is not= welcome.

So, no, these problems did not arrive wi= th Coraline and her =E2=80=9CSJW=E2=80=9D friends. These problems have exis= ted for a very long time and are just now being called out as unacceptable.= Gogaruco had a situation in =E2=80=9909 that highlighted the need for Code= s of Conduct in general and in specific.
=C2=A0<= /div>
>= ;2.=C2=A0 You cited a known hate-monger, Theodore Beale. Mr Beale (aka =E2= =80=9CVox Day=E2=80=9D) has the dubious distinction of being the only perso= n kicked out of the SFWA for abuse of an SFWA platform to spread a racist, = misogynistic message about another SFWA author. All of this weakens any arg= ument you might actually have. (If you doubt me, read PZ Meyers on Beale.)<= br>

Known by whom?

Pret= ty much anyone who isn=E2=80=99t a racist themselves. One does *not* get to= say that someone of a difference race is not viewed =E2=80=9Cas being full= y civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not=E2=80=9D with= out *legitimately* being called a racist. One does *not* get to say that = =E2=80=9Ca few acid-burned faces [of women] is a small price to pay=E2=80= =9D and claim that one isn=E2=80=99t sexist. Beale is a hate monger; citing= him in support of your argument *harms* any argument you could possibly ma= ke (just as citing that known humanitarian J Stalin in favour of a position= you hold would diminish that argument).
=C2=A0<= /div>
And pleas= e, interpret Coraline's "Thoughts on leaving technical mgmt of Rub= y to Matz and delegating community mgmt to a separate org?" to me. Tha= nk you.

That=E2=80= =99s easy. Matz has expressed concern about having to spend too much time o= n community management with a CoC in place. As he *is* the BDfL of Ruby, he= could choose to delegate community management to other people he trusts. T= his isn=E2=80=99t about a takeover or Ruby, it is about finding things that= can work. And yes, if there *were* a separate organization, I would person= ally want to make sure that some of the more rational opponents to CoCs in = Ruby were involved in the organization so as to protect against the abuses = about which they have indicated fear.

-a
--


Unsubscribe: <mailto:= ruby-core-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=3Dunsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/m= ailman/options/ruby-core>


--94eb2c071b6c64e139052a7aa260-- --===============1285840914== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Unsubscribe: --===============1285840914==--