From: Andrew Kirilenko Date: 2016-01-27T10:39:49+03:00 Subject: [ruby-core:73527] Re: [Ruby trunk - Misc #12004] Code of Conduct --===============1106310504== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1147e56a312b5a052a4be846 --001a1147e56a312b5a052a4be846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >This is a deflection. The problem that some of us are calling out is that *you may not see the problems* because you are not attuned to them. I rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned to them naturally (= this is something I have to work at because I reflect the majority in many different ways). So go and show us examples of someone being treated differently due to his/her/it sexual, religious or any other views/habits/believes by Ruby community. While you are at it, I'd like to remind you about Elia still being harassed by this fine group due to his believes. Problem with this code of conduct is that it'll reduce freedoms and rights of people not sharing your version of reality. >See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there are women who code. But there are subtle disincentives to contribution for a lot of women, and comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen anything useful, so = nothing she=E2=80=99s done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are one such disincentive. And this is words juggling. Yes, there are women who code, no one is arguing with this. Some of them are good at it, some of them are bad - just like men. I was talking about particular case - Coraline - and I would have asked same questions if she 'd be male or undecided or whatever. For what I care you are all letters on my display and I treat you all equally. Next statements are just statistics derived from my 20 years of experience as engineer (working with different teams in different counties) and some publicly available data. In any team, I worked with, women/men are ~ 1/10.If you'll look at github and look for accounts with photos on them - like 90% of them will be of caucasian or asian male. I'm not trying to imply anything from these facts (e.g. best engineer I worked with during my career was actually black (and I don't care about USA PC - we call black people "black" here and everybody, including black people, are OK with that)), just something for you to think about. On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Austin Ziegler wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Andrew Kirilenko < > andrew.kirilenko@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 1. While I am using Ruby for past 15 years literally on daily basis, I a= m >> not affilated with the Ruby project in any way. What I will state below >> should be interpreted as my personal opinion and should not be used agai= nst >> Ruby project in any form. >> 2. I have nothing against people with any sexual habbits. Personally, I >> have FtM friend and quite few gay friends. I respect them for what they = do >> in their professional life and/or other areas we share. I can't care les= s >> for what they do in their bedrooms. It's their life, they can do whateve= r >> they want with it. >> > 3. I separate my professional activities from my other activities. I'd >> work with trans, gay, child molester, serial killer, even Hitler himself= if >> they will add value to the project, I'm working on. >> > > A couple of quick notes, starting here: your statement here is something > that reflects a systematic cultural bias. In general, people of minority > status cannot separate their minority status(es) from their professional > work any more than people of majority status can separate their majority > status(es) from their professional work. It may seem like someone who is = in > a majority position can do so, but that is only because their majority > status *permeates the culture* within which they work. Understand, I am > *not* passing judgement on this systematic cultural bias, merely calling = it > out as an explicit thing. People who are minorities are *consistently* > reminded of that minority status on a regular basis without anyone even > trying. > > >> Does Ruby project need this code of conduct? Definitely no. I interacted >> with community (mostly @ IRC channel) and it was ALWAYS nice, welcoming = and >> helpful. No exceptions. Even matz answered my (not always properly >> formulated, I must admit) questions several times. No one asked anything >> about my sex, age, skin color, nationality, religious believes or anythi= ng >> else not related to the problem in question. I simply don't see problem >> which should be solved with this code of conduct. >> > > This is a deflection. The problem that some of us are calling out is that > *you may not see the problems* because you are not attuned to them. I > rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned to them naturally= (this is > something I have to work at because I reflect the majority in many > different ways). > > >> Now let's look at Coraline's github. What we see there? Right, code of >> conduct itself and few forks and hello worlds. Did she added anything >> useful to community? Maybe, but not for me. Rest of the guys and gils fr= om >> this fine group? I forced myself to check 5 more accounts (in order of >> appearing in (in)famous opal #941) - all the same - endless hello worlds >> and playgrounds. Nothing even remotely useful. Of course, my opinion is >> biased by Coraline's personality here, so I might be totally wrong. So, >> Coraline, show us your code and I'll appologize to you personally. And n= o, >> statements of your friends "Coraline is one of the most seasoned develop= ers >> I seen" or "Coraline is panelist of ruby rogues" (I don't even understan= d >> what does it mean) does not count. >> > > See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there are women who code. But ther= e > are subtle disincentives to contribution for a lot of women, and > comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen anything useful, s= o nothing she=E2=80=99s > done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are one such disincentive. > > If you want a few examples from the Ruby community, look at: > > * mperham/sidekiq > * rails/rails (or rails/rails.github.com) > * rspec/rspec > > I=E2=80=99ve only added it to mime-types/ruby-mime-types so far, but will= be > adding it to halostatue/diff-lcs, halostatue/minitar, and halostatue/colo= r > in the coming months (among others as I make modifications). > > I=E2=80=99m not looking to make anyone believe what I believe. What I=E2= =80=99m telling > people is that as long as I=E2=80=99m running those projects and maintain= ing those > gems, I will be holding both myself and anyone who contributes to the > projects to a high standard designed to combat harassment and create a mo= re > welcoming environment. > > -a > -- > Austin Ziegler =E2=80=A2 halostatue@gmail.com =E2=80=A2 austin@halostatue= .ca > http://www.halostatue.ca/ =E2=80=A2 http://twitter.com/halostatue > > > Unsubscribe: > > > --001a1147e56a312b5a052a4be846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>This is a deflection. The problem that some of us are calling= out is that *you may not see the problems* because you are not attuned to = them. I rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned to them nat= urally (this is something I have to work at because I reflect the majority = in many different ways).

So go and show us examples of someone being tr= eated differently due to his/her/it sexual, religious or any other views/ha= bits/believes by Ruby community. While you are at it, I'd like to remin= d you about Elia still being harassed by this fine group due to his believe= s. Problem with this code of conduct is that it'll reduce freedoms and = rights of people not sharing your version of reality.=C2=A0

>See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there are w= omen who code. But there are subtle disincentives to contribution for a lot= of women, and comparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen anyth= ing useful, so nothing she=E2=80=99s done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are one = such disincentive.

And this is words juggling. Yes, there are wom= en who code, no one is arguing with this. Some of them are good at it, some= of them are bad - just like men. I was talking about particular case - Cor= aline - and I would have asked same questions if she 'd be male or unde= cided or whatever. For what I care you are all letters on my display and I = treat you all equally.

Next statements are just statistics derived from= my 20 years of experience as engineer (working with different teams in dif= ferent counties) and some publicly available data. In any team, I worked wi= th, women/men are ~ 1/10.If you'll look at github and look for accounts= with photos on them - like 90% of them will be of caucasian or asian male.= I'm not trying to imply anything from these facts (e.g. best engineer = I worked with during my career was actually black (and I don't care abo= ut USA PC - we call black people "black" here and everybody, incl= uding black people, are OK with that)), just something for you to think abo= ut.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Austin Ziegler &= lt;halostatue@gma= il.com> wrote:
On = Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Andrew Kirilenko <andrew.kirilenko@= gmail.com> wrote:
1. W= hile I am using Ruby for past 15 years literally on daily basis, I am not a= ffilated with the Ruby project in any way. What I will state below should b= e interpreted as my personal opinion and should not be used against Ruby pr= oject in any form.
2. I have nothing against people with any sexu= al habbits. Personally, I have FtM friend and quite few gay friends. I resp= ect them for what they do in their professional life and/or other areas we = share. I can't care less for what they do in their bedrooms. It's t= heir life, they can do whatever they want with it.
3. I separate my professi= onal activities from my other activities. I'd work with trans, gay, chi= ld molester, serial killer, even Hitler himself if they will add value to t= he project, I'm working on.

A couple of quick notes, starting here: your statement here i= s something that reflects a systematic cultural bias. In general, people of= minority status cannot separate their minority status(es) from their profe= ssional work any more than people of majority status can separate their maj= ority status(es) from their professional work. It may seem like someone who= is in a majority position can do so, but that is only because their majori= ty status *permeates the culture* within which they work. Understand, I am = *not* passing judgement on this systematic cultural bias, merely calling it= out as an explicit thing. People who are minorities are *consistently* rem= inded of that minority status on a regular basis without anyone even trying= .
=C2=A0
D= oes Ruby project need this code of conduct? Definitely no. I interacted wit= h community (mostly @ IRC channel) and it was ALWAYS nice, welcoming and he= lpful. No exceptions. Even matz answered my (not always properly formulated= , I must admit) questions several times. No one asked anything about my sex= , age, skin color, nationality, religious believes or anything else not rel= ated to the problem in question. I simply don't see problem which shoul= d be solved with this code of conduct.

This is a deflection. The problem that some of us = are calling out is that *you may not see the problems* because you are not = attuned to them. I rarely see the problems because I=E2=80=99m not attuned = to them naturally (this is something I have to work at because I reflect th= e majority in many different ways).
=C2=A0
Now let's look at Coraline&= #39;s github. What we see there? Right, code of conduct itself and few fork= s and hello worlds. Did she added anything useful to community? Maybe, but = not for me. Rest of the guys and gils from this fine group? I forced myself= to check 5 more accounts (in order of appearing in (in)famous opal #941) -= all the same - endless hello worlds and playgrounds. Nothing even remotely= useful. Of course, my opinion is biased by Coraline's personality here= , so I might be totally wrong. So, Coraline, show us your code and I'll= appologize to you personally. And no, statements of your friends "Cor= aline is one of the most seasoned developers I seen" or "Coraline= is panelist of ruby rogues" (I don't even understand what does it= mean) does not count.

See, this is part of the problem. Yes, there are women who code. B= ut there are subtle disincentives to contribution for a lot of women, and c= omparisons like this (=E2=80=9CI haven=E2=80=99t seen anything useful, so n= othing she=E2=80=99s done must be useful=E2=80=9D) are one such disincentiv= e.

If you want a few examples from the Ruby commun= ity, look at:

* mperham/sidekiq
* ra= ils/rails (or rails/r= ails.github.com)
* rspec/rspec

I=E2= =80=99ve only added it to mime-types/ruby-mime-types so far, but will be ad= ding it to halostatue/diff-lcs, halostatue/minitar, and halostatue/color in= the coming months (among others as I make modifications).

I=E2=80=99m not looking to make anyone believe what I believe. Wha= t I=E2=80=99m telling people is that as long as I=E2=80=99m running those p= rojects and maintaining those gems, I will be holding both myself and anyon= e who contributes to the projects to a high standard designed to combat har= assment and create a more welcoming environment.

-a
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