[ruby-talk:10349] Re: ANN: Slide show available (neoteny?)

[e-mail] (Phil Tomson) wrote:
>In article <[e-mail]>,
>Christoph Rippel <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ben Tilly [mailto:[e-mail]]
[...]
> >> >Some people there were astonished when they knew my real age.  I was
> >> >appeared like a child from westerners' view.
> >>
> >> Indeed.  That is due to something called neoteny.
>
>And I thought the point was that he looked younger because he doesn't
>smoke.

Based on my experience, I would guess that race
probably has a larger role.

> >>
> >> <digression>
> >>
> >> Neoteny consists of retaining juvenile characteristics
> >> into adulthood.  Compared to the great apes all humans
> >> show a great deal of neoteny.  Different races different
> >> amounts.  The various Oriental races have more of a
> >> tendancy that way than Caucasians do, with the result
> >> that Caucasions look old to Orientals and conversely
> >> Orientals look much younger than they are to Caucasians.
>
>There are a lot of other factors that could account for this...
>cultural, dietary, (and in this case not smoking versus smoking).
>Compare a Caucasian that smokes (and has for a while) with another
>Caucasian of the same age who never smoked - you can generally tell that
>the smoker looks older.

And we must accept every single explanation other than
race because race is taboo to talk about?

The following statements are based on my experience:

- Most Caucasians when guessing the age of someone who
   is Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc will consistently
   underestimate by a large margin.  The minority that
   doesn't generally has a lot of experience with
   Orientals.
- Chinese, Japanese, etc that you meet in the US have
   no problem getting the ages of Caucasians right.
   But ones who came here from other countries when
   they were older very often have stories about how
   their judgement of people's ages has changed.
- Most "whites" in the US will recognize that someone
   who is half-white, half-Oriental is white.  They
   typically have much more trouble with the other half,
   and often will guess Hispanic.  (ie Something that is
   "sorta white but not quite.")  They will also
   underestimate the age of that person.
- People with significant exposure to Orientals will
   have no problem seeing the other half and have
   somewhat less trouble with ages.  We recognize that
   which we are familiar with.

Disclaimer.  I am white.  My brother lives in Taiwan.
Another brother fought in Vietnam.  I have half-siblings
who are half-Chinese.  I count as friends people from
many places.  The above trends have been consistent
from dealing with many of them.  When I read Gould
quoting from accounts about how people from different
countries misjudge each other's ages, it was already
stuff that I was quite familiar with from personal
experience.

The comment about halves appearing to be Hispanic is
odd.  As a random example, Lou Diamond Phillips is
routinely cast as a Hispanic (eg in Stand and Deliver)
but is half-white, half-Philipino.

> >> Virtually all domestic animals likewise show neoteny.
> >> For instance dogs are biologically immature wolves.
>
>Careful here...  If you start extrapolating this sort of theory
>to humans (and it sounds like a half-baked theory to me)...  well it
>smells of racism to me.  And please know I'm not accusing you of anything,
>just think about your previous two paragraphs in this context and you'll
>probably see my point.

I believe you are being too quick to judge here.

> >> Indeed the closer a particular breed of dog comes to
> >> actually growing up, the more aggressive it is.
>
>Who is to say which breed of dog is more 'mature' than the others and that
>agression is a sign of maturity?  All of the breeds of dogs are still dogs
>- despite their differences they are one species.  There are not, in
>reality, different 'races' of humans - 'race' is an artificial distinction
>- we are all of the same race (the Human race - homosapiens).  The whole
>idea of 'races' lead to racism.  In reality we are all more the same than
>we are different.

One at a time.  Maturity can be measured by various
comparisons between the form of the dog and that of a
wolf.  Gould's comparison was between guard and herding
dogs.  Herding dogs, like collies, generally have very
sharp features and are aggressive.  Guard dogs, like the
Great Pyraneese, look like nothing so much as a giant
puppy and have a very different temperment.

As for what personality is associated with maturity in
canines, again compare to the wolf.  Wolves make very
poor pets.  They are highly intelligent and fun while
they are growing up, but once full-grown they will be
on the lookout for an opportunity to become pack-leader.
This tends to be when the owners abandon their pet...

As for humans, the racial differences between humans
are far less extreme than the differences between dogs.
For instance consider the jokes about chihuahuas and
Saint Bernards.  Breeding them the usual way is just
not going to happen.

Beyond that, well let us say that I am of the opinion
that whatever racial differences might or might not
exist, they are far overshadowed by cultural
differences.  But now we are really getting off-topic.

> >> For much (much) more on this, Stephen J. Gould has an
> >> interesting book on this topic called "Ontogeny and
> >> Phylogeny".
> >>
> >> </digression>
> ><really off topic>
> >Hm the juvenile characteristics you quote include
> >large body size and small teeth.  I believe that
> >you won't have trouble finding anthropologists who
> >will be rather skeptical if neoteny is particularly
> >relevant for human evolution and some of Gould's
> >more material claims have been proven wrong.
> ></really off topic>
>
>I'm not an anthropologist and I don't play one on TV, but I'm very
>skeptical.
>Anyway, sorry for continuing the digression, I know this actually belongs
>on one of the evolution newsgroups, but I just had to get my 2cents in on
>this topic.

This belongs on one of the evolution newsgroups
indeed.  If you go there you will find that Gould's
name is very well-known, and not as a crackpot.

Regards,
Ben

PS I try to be many things.  Interesting is one of
them.  Bigoted is not...
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