[ruby-talk:9862] Re: 101 Misconceptions About Dynamic Languages

"Reimer Behrends" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:[e-mail]...
[...]

> > It had previously  been asserted in the discussion that
> > Ruby would have trouble with full blown generic programming
> > because of the lack of overloading and and automatic instantiation
> > of overloaded functions for the generic parameters.
> Yes. This, of course, is wrong. Which is why I was giving a more
Hm I think nobody claimed anything like this
> complete picture as to how genericity can be viewed as an example of
> inheritance, for instance. I would again advise that people familiarize
> themselves with, say, Beta's virtual patterns. It should be obvious that
> classes in Ruby can do pretty much all that patterns can do. Example:
>
> class Polynomial < Ring
>
>   def type
>     nil # Formal type, undefined
>   end
>
>   # add the usual operations on polynomials here, dependent
>   # on the result of 'type'.
>
> end
> class ComplexPolynomial < Polynomial
>
>   def type
>     Complex
>   end
>
> end

I am not sure why you want to introduce an inheritance
     ``ComplexPolynomial < Polynomial''
relation?  Somebody else might hold the equally valid
 opinion that the number of variables ``rel_dim''
should determine the inheritance relation. So it is probably
best not worry about this at all. Simply introduce a
couple of Class attributes like

class << Polynomial
 def coeff
         # type of base ring
end
def  rel_dim
      #  number of vars
end
end

and nobody is going be pissed. I hold the opinion that there is
a general problem with OO that tries to enforce inheritance
relation when there isn't a real crying need to do so ...

Christoph

> Now, you may want to modify this to avoid speed problems (e.g.,
> computing the function only once and sticking it in a variable,
> or using eval/class_eval/etc. to generate an optimized class on
> the fly), but the general idea is that in Ruby you can redefine
> any aspect of a class, including types, exceptions that are
> caught, and whatnot. Put a number of such functions in there,
> perhaps encapsulating them in a mixin, and you essentially
> have the functionality that are covered by traits.
>
> [...]
> > >To begin with, for the most basic use of generic types, no additional
> > >effort is necessary--Array and Hash are obvious examples.
>
> This was simple just noting something important--a large majority
> of generic types simply require that the objects they manipulate
> simply respond to certain messages--no additional measures are
> needed. Just because C++ or Eiffel as statically typed languages
> need the types as parameters doesn't mean the same for Ruby or
> Smalltalk.
>
> > A main idea of the traits technique is that one may bundle
> > all of the generic inteface in a kind of proxy class.
>
> A main idea of the traits technique is that in a compiled language you
> somehow have to juggle things around so that the compiler won't
> complain. In dynamically typed languages, factory objects will usually
> provide the same information that you have elsewhere nicely. If it's
> needed at all.
>
> The big problem in C++ is that you have to determine _at compile time_ a
> number of things. In Ruby, first of all, many of these don't need to be
> determined. Secondly, there's no real difference between compile time
> and runtime in Ruby. So, while C++ template mechanism essentially
> provides yet another Turing-complete engine (with the concomitant cost
> increase for developing correct compilers and other language tools),
> dynamically typed languages can just ignore this.
>
> What I'm saying here is that most of the tools for generic programming
> in C++ are artifacts of the language, not a prerequisite for using the
> techniques.
>
> [...]
> > >For more
> > >advanced schemes, it may be best to avoid the elaborate and
> > >unnecessarily complicated maze of C++ templates and return to simpler
> > >approaches.
> >
> > C++ templates aren't actually complicated, but anyway, that's
> > off the point anyway.
>
> I'm not sure if you've ever thought about the inherent complexity
> of implementing the C++ type mechanism completely and correctly in a
> compiler? I played around with trying to do a formal specification
> in Z a while ago, which was bad enough. In other words, I'm not
> saying that a user can't understand it, but that it adds unnecessary
> complexity to the language specification and implementation.
>
> > For instance, the instantion of a parametric type A[X] as
> > >A[T], where X is a formal parameter and T a concrete type, can be seen
> > >as specialization inheritance from A[X] with X = T. What we need for
> > >this to work is to be able to work with types as first class
> > >objects--something that C++ can't do,
> >
> > a) that's not necessary
>
> True, Eiffel 2 did it without having types as first class objects, but I
> was simplifying here (expressing a sufficient, not a necessary
> condition). What I basically mean is that having classes as first class
> objects (or an equivalent mechanism) eliminates most of the problems.
> C++ "solves" the problem by making the template mechanism a small
> programming language of its own, where classes _are_ first class
> objects--an exercise that would be absolutely pointless in Ruby.
>
> > b) the traits technique approximates the same thing anyway.
>
> See above.
>
> > >but Ruby can. Instantiating formal
> > >parameters of generic types is basically constraining a family of
> > >objects along one more dimensions. While I believe that somebody
> > >mentioned earlier that genericity and inheritance are orthogonal
> > >concepts, the opposite is true: generics introduce a classical is-a
> > >relation, generally with full substitutivity (modulo the usual
> > >covariance issues).
> >
> > I don't understand which is-a relationship you are talking about here.
> > Could you give an example?
>
> Simple. Let Polynomial[X] be the generic type of polynomials over a
> ring. Then we have
>
> Complex < Field < Ring,
>
> and thus
>
> Polynomial[Complex] < Polynomial[X],
> where the relation < expresses a subtyping relationship (modulo
> covariance issues, which we tend to naturally ignore in Ruby anyway,
> since only type theorists tend to get worked up over them).
>
> > >Instantiating the formal paramaters would then be the
> > >equivalent to performining currying on 'initialize'.
> >
> > Have to ask you again for an example.  I know currying
> > and initialize, but I'm not sure what your vision is
> > here.
>
> Class Polynomial < Ring
>
>   def initialize(type, data)
>     @type = type
>     ... do something with 'data', based on @type ...
>   end
>
>   # Add usual operations on polynomial here, depending
>   # on @type.
>
> end
>
> Class ComplexPolynomial < Polynomial
>
>   def initialize(data)
>     super Complex, data
>   end
>
> end

> > It should also
> > >be noted that just because something is part of C++ it should not
> > >necessarily be added to another language; in fact, the converse is
> > >generally true.
> >
> > I wasn't advocating that.
>
> Sorry. I wasn't trying to claim you did. I was just noting in general
> that I usually question the wisdom of importing most of the hacks that
> are native to C++ into another unsuspecting language. They generally
> come with a ridiculous cost in terms of specifying them properly and
> implementing them. For instance, while the fact that the grammar of
> C++ isn't LR(k) for any k has certainly served to advance the field
> of parsing technology (ANTLR, BTYacc), it hasn't made the language
> proper commensurately more expressive.
>
> > Though I have suggested in other posts
> > that overloading would be useful in Ruby, but for somewhat different
> > reasons.
>
> Overloading doesn't make sense in the context of Ruby, since it requires
> static type declarations as a prerequisite. You are probably referring
> to multiple dispatch, which is a feature of a number of other languages
> (such as Dylan), but not C++.
>
> Reimer Behrends