[#86984] Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "David A. Black" <dblack@...>

Hi --

81 messages 2003/12/02
[#86998] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Steve Tuckner <STUCKNER@...> 2003/12/02

So what is the relationship between @_ vars and @vars that are defined in a

[#87001] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/02

Hi --

[#87006] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Steve Tuckner <STUCKNER@...> 2003/12/02

Maybe I am being dense, so bear with me...

[#87011] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Lyle Johnson <lyle@...> 2003/12/02

Steve Tuckner wrote:

[#87013] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Steve Tuckner <STUCKNER@...> 2003/12/02

OK so the jist of it is that @_var variables are stored with the class of

[#87095] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@...> 2003/12/03

[#87098] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/03

Hi --

[#87102] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — ts <decoux@...> 2003/12/03

>>>>> "D" == David A Black <dblack@wobblini.net> writes:

[#87244] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "Christoph" <chr_mail@...> 2003/12/05

ts wrote:

[#87275] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — ts <decoux@...> 2003/12/05

>>>>> "C" == Christoph <chr_mail@gmx.net> writes:

[#87286] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "Christoph" <chr_mail@...> 2003/12/05

ts wrote:

[#87290] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/05

Hi --

[#87308] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Austin Ziegler <austin@...> 2003/12/05

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:56:41 +0900, David A. Black wrote:

[#87310] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "Christoph" <chr_mail@...> 2003/12/05

Austin Ziegler wrote:

[#87314] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/05

On Friday 05 December 2003 05:40 pm, Christoph wrote:

[#87318] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — matz@... (Yukihiro Matsumoto) 2003/12/05

Hi,

[#87335] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Nathaniel Talbott <nathaniel@...> 2003/12/05

On Dec 5, 2003, at 12:15, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

[#87320] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Austin Ziegler <austin@...> 2003/12/05

On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 01:40:42 +0900, Christoph wrote:

[#87322] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/05

On Friday 05 December 2003 06:41 pm, Austin Ziegler wrote:

[#87066] What's the best way to create methods dealing with an object of a certain class? — Leif K-Brooks <eurleif@...>

I want to add a method to be run on Strings. Currently, I'm just adding

14 messages 2003/12/03
[#87072] Re: What's the best way to create methods dealing with an object of a certain class? — Lyle Johnson <lyle@...> 2003/12/03

Leif K-Brooks wrote:

[#87083] Some Regexp — orlovdn@... (Dmitry N Orlov)

I want to get array from file like this:

20 messages 2003/12/03

[#87203] sorting — vanjac12@... (Van Jacques)

I'm not sure where to post about this problem, so

18 messages 2003/12/04

[#87233] Generalized break? — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>

I hate to bring up possible language changes, since there is

14 messages 2003/12/04

[#87255] WeakRef and Object#hash — Samuel Tesla <samuel@...>

I'm trying to implement a weak key hash to use for generic objects.

37 messages 2003/12/05
[#87259] Dumb question to which I ought to know the answer by now — "Mark J. Reed" <markjreed@...> 2003/12/05

Is there an assignment version of Hash#values_at, so I can assign

[#87266] Re: Dumb question to which I ought to know the answer by now — Austin Ziegler <austin@...> 2003/12/05

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:42:05 +0900, Mark J. Reed wrote:

[#87333] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — "Weirich, James" <James.Weirich@...>

From: David A. Black [mailto:dblack@wobblini.net]

18 messages 2003/12/05
[#87337] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — Chris Thomas <chris@...> 2003/12/05

[#87402] Re: Attempted roadmap of future instance variables.... — matz@... (Yukihiro Matsumoto) 2003/12/06

Hi,

[#87382] Idea: Linux PIM in Ruby — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>

On my wishlist of top 20 things I'd like to do: A PIM for Linux.

30 messages 2003/12/06
[#87407] Re: Idea: Linux PIM in Ruby — Lyle Johnson <lyle@...> 2003/12/06

Hal Fulton wrote:

[#87409] rbbr-0.5.0 — Masao Mutoh <mutoh@...>

Hi,

18 messages 2003/12/06

[#87430] Ideas for replacing $0==__FILE__ — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>

I've accepted now that my "generalized break" was a bad idea. In

26 messages 2003/12/06
[#87720] Re: Ideas for replacing $0==__FILE__ — Eric Hodel <drbrain@...7.net> 2003/12/10

Hal Fulton (hal9000@hypermetrics.com) wrote:

[#87723] Re: Ideas for replacing $0==__FILE__ — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...> 2003/12/10

Eric Hodel wrote:

[#87726] Re: Ideas for replacing $0==__FILE__ — Eric Hodel <drbrain@...7.net> 2003/12/10

Hal Fulton (hal9000@hypermetrics.com) wrote:

[#87459] Trying to create a Ruby daemon — Samuel Kvarnbrink <samuel.kvarnbrink@...>

Hi,

11 messages 2003/12/07

[#87553] format money — saggmannen@... (saggmannen)

Hello, is there a way to format "Money"-style floats in ruby. E.g:

25 messages 2003/12/08

[#87587] Adjusting the Scope of Blocks — Mark Cox <mark_cox@...>

Hi,

22 messages 2003/12/09
[#87606] Re: Adjusting the Scope of Blocks — "Robert Klemme" <bob.news@...> 2003/12/09

[#87620] Re: Adjusting the Scope of Blocks — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/09

Hi --

[#87626] ANN: REXML 2.7.2 — ser@... (Sean Russell)

Hi,

18 messages 2003/12/09

[#87638] Inheriting variables, super, and "not super"? — Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng <hgs@...>

Is there a way in a method to say

11 messages 2003/12/09

[#87706] Docs for Socket, OpenSSL, etc — "James F. Hranicky" <jfh@...>

Are there any plans to add docs for modules like Socket and OpenSSL, etc to

23 messages 2003/12/10
[#87766] Re: Docs for Socket, OpenSSL, etc — Simon Strandgaard <neoneye@...> 2003/12/11

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:20:21 +0900, James F. Hranicky wrote:

[#87769] Re: Docs for Socket, OpenSSL, etc — "James F. Hranicky" <jfh@...> 2003/12/11

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:57:00 +0900

[#87780] Re: Docs for Socket, OpenSSL, etc — Dave Thomas <dave@...> 2003/12/11

[#87781] Re: Docs for Socket, OpenSSL, etc — "James F. Hranicky" <jfh@...> 2003/12/11

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:07:28 +0900

[#87775] prog for g.c.d. of 2 integers — vanjac12@... (Van Jacques)

Topics from mathematics make good practice programs, IMO.

13 messages 2003/12/11

[#87783] problems with racc: $end token — "Luke A. Kanies" <luke@...>

Hello,

14 messages 2003/12/11
[#87789] Re: problems with racc: $end token — Jim Freeze <jim@...> 2003/12/11

On Friday, 12 December 2003 at 0:42:30 +0900, Luke A. Kanies wrote:

[#87819] Ruby-Talk Subject Matters — "T. Onoma" <transami@...>

Out of curiosity, how do others feel about "suggestive" threads? Do you feel

15 messages 2003/12/11

[#87856] Simple issue giving problems — Brad <coish@...>

Hello all,

17 messages 2003/12/11

[#88031] inplace assignment — "T. Onoma" <transami@...>

is there anyway, anyway at all, ugly hacks accepted, of doing inplace

40 messages 2003/12/14
[#88032] Re: inplace assignment — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...> 2003/12/14

T. Onoma wrote:

[#88034] Re: inplace assignment — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/14

On Sunday 14 December 2003 05:51 am, Hal Fulton wrote:

[#88037] Re: inplace assignment — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...> 2003/12/14

T. Onoma wrote:

[#88041] Re: inplace assignment — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/14

On Sunday 14 December 2003 07:49 am, Hal Fulton wrote:

[#88056] Re: inplace assignment — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/14

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, T. Onoma wrote:

[#88059] Re: inplace assignment — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/14

On Sunday 14 December 2003 03:59 pm, David A. Black wrote:

[#88064] Re: inplace assignment — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/14

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, T. Onoma wrote:

[#88077] All there is to know about Duck Typing (was: inplace assignment) — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/14

Alright, a number of things related to Duck Tpying have been popping up and I

[#88081] Re: All there is to know about Duck Typing (was: inplace assignment) — "David Naseby" <david.naseby@...> 2003/12/14

> -----Original Message-----

[#88147] extremely strange segfault — "Luke A. Kanies" <luke@...>

Hi all,

14 messages 2003/12/15

[#88150] UnboundMethods Useless? — "T. Onoma" <transami@...>

Urrrr.....

34 messages 2003/12/15
[#88239] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — Dan Doel <djd15@...> 2003/12/16

You can do stuff like this:

[#88309] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/17

On Tuesday 16 December 2003 08:54 pm, Dan Doel wrote:

[#88322] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — Chad Fowler <chad@...> 2003/12/17

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, T. Onoma wrote:

[#88323] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — ts <decoux@...> 2003/12/17

>>>>> "C" == Chad Fowler <chad@chadfowler.com> writes:

[#88327] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/17

On Wednesday 17 December 2003 01:21 pm, ts wrote:

[#88328] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — ts <decoux@...> 2003/12/17

>>>>> "T" == T Onoma <transami@runbox.com> writes:

[#88332] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/17

On Wednesday 17 December 2003 01:59 pm, ts wrote:

[#88333] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/17

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, T. Onoma wrote:

[#88336] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — Peter <Peter.Vanbroekhoven@...> 2003/12/17

> I don't know what you mean by (ir)reversible, but the point is that

[#88337] Re: UnboundMethods Useless? — ts <decoux@...> 2003/12/17

>>>>> "P" == Peter <Peter.Vanbroekhoven@cs.kuleuven.ac.be> writes:

[#88159] Re: Extracting multiple lines from a file — "Berger, Daniel" <djberge@...>

> -----Original Message-----

18 messages 2003/12/15
[#88161] Re: Extracting multiple lines from a file — "Ron Coutts" <rcoutts@...> 2003/12/15

[#88166] Re: Extracting multiple lines from a file — "Mark J. Reed" <markjreed@...> 2003/12/15

On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 07:16:23AM +0900, Ron Coutts wrote:

[#88199] Re: Extracting multiple lines from a file — Derek Lewis <lewisd@...00f.net> 2003/12/16

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Mark J. Reed wrote:

[#88172] Copying methods from one class to another — "T. Onoma" <transami@...>

Is there any way to copy a method from one class to another?

22 messages 2003/12/16
[#88174] Re: Copying methods from one class to another — Jamis Buck <jgb3@...> 2003/12/16

T. Onoma wrote:

[#88183] Re: Copying methods from one class to another — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/16

On Tuesday 16 December 2003 05:23 am, Jamis Buck wrote:

[#88189] Re: Copying methods from one class to another — "David A. Black" <dblack@...> 2003/12/16

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, T. Onoma wrote:

[#88191] Re: Copying methods from one class to another — "T. Onoma" <transami@...> 2003/12/16

On Tuesday 16 December 2003 02:51 pm, David A. Black wrote:

[#88195] Re: Copying methods from one class to another — Hacksaw <hacksaw@...> 2003/12/16

Sorry to step into the middle of a conversation, but what does this mean:

[#88211] Newbie questions — jfrapper@... (Jim Frapper)

I was wondering what the equivalent tools were to perldoc(ri is not)

44 messages 2003/12/16
[#88259] Re: Newbie questions — Chad Fowler <chad@...> 2003/12/16

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Jim Frapper wrote:

[#88266] Re: Newbie questions — Gavin Sinclair <gsinclair@...> 2003/12/16

On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, 8:10:19 AM, Chad wrote:

[#88270] Re: Newbie questions — Daniel Carrera <dcarrera@...> 2003/12/16

>

[#88271] Re: Newbie questions — "Luke A. Kanies" <luke@...> 2003/12/16

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Daniel Carrera wrote:

[#88272] Re: Newbie questions — Daniel Carrera <dcarrera@...> 2003/12/16

On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 07:07:45AM +0900, Luke A. Kanies wrote:

[#88280] Re: Newbie questions — "Luke A. Kanies" <luke@...> 2003/12/16

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Daniel Carrera wrote:

[#88370] Re: Newbie questions — Derek Lewis <lewisd@...00f.net> 2003/12/17

[#88220] Re: Newbie questions — "Berger, Daniel" <djberge@...>

> -----Original Message-----

31 messages 2003/12/16
[#88224] Re: Newbie questions — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...> 2003/12/16

Berger, Daniel wrote:

[#88227] Re: Newbie questions — Thomas Adam <thomas_adam16@...> 2003/12/16

--- Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:

[#88228] Re: Newbie questions — Hal Fulton <hal9000@...> 2003/12/16

Thomas Adam wrote:

[#88289] Very odd IO problem — Brad <coish@...>

All:

18 messages 2003/12/17

[#88414] Yukihiro - Please ensure backwards compatibility — jobeicus@... (Joseph Benik)

having recently migrated one of my machines from a 1.6 flavor to the

14 messages 2003/12/18

[#88494] How to return more than one result from a method? — Tim Hunter <cyclists@...>

I'm trying to code a method that has two result values. The values are

14 messages 2003/12/19

[#88581] replacing two EOL chars by one — xah@... (Xah Lee)

i have a bunch of java files that has spaced-out formatting that i

23 messages 2003/12/20

[#88643] Ruby 1.8.1 preview4 — matz@... (Yukihiro Matsumoto)

Hi,

32 messages 2003/12/22

[#88731] RubyGems and dependencies — sera@... (Francis Hwang)

Two RubyGems questions about dependencies:

16 messages 2003/12/23

[#88781] TkText freezes — quillion <me@...>

Hello all,

21 messages 2003/12/24

[#88814] ruby 1.8.1 — matz@... (Yukihiro Matsumoto)

Merry Christmas,

25 messages 2003/12/24

[#88936] Inconsistent value of uninitialized variable — Gavin Sinclair <gsinclair@...>

The following statement, free of all context, generates an error:

10 messages 2003/12/28

[#88954] An addition to Array (or Enumerable)? — Harry Ohlsen <harryo@...>

Yesterday, I wanted to get the output from "ls -l some_file" and pull out just the file size and the file name. As I start writing this, I realise, of course, that I'd have been better off just using the File#size method, but I still think the issue I hit is interesting.

12 messages 2003/12/28

[#89015] ruby-dev summary 22273-22434 — "Takaaki Tateishi" <ttate@...>

Hello,

16 messages 2003/12/30
[#89016] Re: ruby-dev summary 22273-22434 — Austin Ziegler <austin@...> 2003/12/30

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:45:11 +0900, Takaaki Tateishi wrote:

Re: Underpinnings of Method Wrapping

From: "T. Onoma" <transami@...>
Date: 2003-12-02 20:46:43 UTC
List: ruby-talk #87034
Peter:

You won't beleive what I just did! I am working on a program for 
distrowatch.com and I decided I wanted to change how a method worked in a 
standard class, I speedily typed:

  class NilClass
    def split(*args)
      super || [ ]
    end
  end

Thinking split already existed. Of course then it dawned on me that NilClass 
doesn't have a split function yet, so the super would not work anyway despite 
the fact that I'm also not making a subclass. All of which is very telling, 
because as a programmer (or as the Ruby interpretor) the following descision 
tree must be figured out:

 subclassing -> exists -> def -> call super => outer class wrap
 subclassing -> exists -> def -> no super => redefine
 subclassing -> exists -> wrap -> call super => same as def or ERROR?
 subclassing -> exists -> wrap -> no super => same as redef or ERROR?
 subclassing -> not exists -> def -> call super => ERROR
 subclassing -> not exists -> def -> no super => define
 subclassing -> not exists -> wrap -> call super => ERROR
 subclassing -> not exists -> wrap -> no super => same as define or ERROR?
 not subclassing -> exists -> def -> call super => redefine w/ out. class wrap
 not subclassing -> exists -> def -> no super => redefine
 not subclassing -> exists -> wrap -> call super => wrap
 not subclassing -> exists -> wrap -> no super => same as redef or ERROR or?
 not subclassing -> not exists -> def -> call super => ERROR
 not subclassing -> not exists -> def -> no super => define
 not subclassing -> not exists -> wrap -> call super => ERROR
 not subclassing -> not exists -> wrap -> no super => same as define or ERROR?

Lots of fun, huh? ;-)  And this doesn't take into account the descisions of 
outer vs. inner wrapping.  (Note: class wrap means the effective wrapping of 
the superclass' method; it is necessarily outer) So if you ask me the above 
descision tree is too complex, and is really on the verge of becoming too 
unwieldy for any ordinary programmer.

> If you had called it that, I'd have known what you meant right away!

I will keep calling it that then. :-) For clearity I'm going to start using 
the following terms:

  outer - a wrap that remians even when the prime method is redefined
  inner - a wrap the is removed when the prime method is redefined
  passive - a wrap that does not alter functionality in any way
  active - a wrap that alters functionality in some way
  shrink - same as superwrap

> But to go a bit further, I'm wondering whether we should make a difference
> at all and just have the programmer indicate whether the wrap should be
> removed on primary redefinition or not - I mentioned the basic idea once
> upon a time in [ruby-talk:86551]. Even wraps that are intrinsic can be
> generic, e.g.,
>
>   def foo(*args)
>     args.map! { |a|
>       if a.respond_to? :unpack
>         a.unpack
>       else
>         a
>       end
>     }
>     result = super
>     if result.respond_to? :pack
>       result.pack
>     else
>       result
>     end
>   end
>
> I realize pack and unpack clash with the methods of String and Array, but
> that's what those method indicators are for. But point is that the method
> above not necessarily needs discarding, even if it does influence the
> arguments and result. So maybe that too is up to the programmer to decide.
> If he says the wrap should be kept, and it breaks things, then he should
> fix it. If he was right, all's well.

That's a good point. And I am leaning in its favor. But to be sure about this 
I think we will need to carefully think about how code gets reused. With 
patient thinking on this matter, we'll come to a certain conclusion on how 
this should work.

> I know that that's a break from Matz's proposal for pre and post where the
> call to super is implicit and it is (apparently) easily enforced that the
> arguments to super and its results are left alone. I never questioned that
> that was a Good Thing. But it's only skin deep since the internal state of
> the arguments and results can be changed anyhow (String#gsub! being an
> example); also the internal state of self can be changed, and all
> practical protection against that is again only skin deep. We can protect
> the interface - or the skin if you want - but to what avail?

Well, it dosen't matter so much what Matz has previously thought, if we find 
something better for good reasons. And if we explain it well enough he'll 
understand (I hope).

> So my conclusion is that maybe we should have two separate keywords for
> "submethod wraps" and "watch wraps", and be done with it. Ruby will
> discard the former when the primary method is redefined, and will keep the
> latter. And the rest is the programmer's responsibility. What do you
> think?

I like the simplicty of it. But I'm not sure yet. Something tells me that 
having a safe way to wrap, even if its only method interface safe, is 
important.

> Hmmmm, thinking about it some more, it seems that maybe we're unifying two
> concepts that are really orthogonal. On one hand there's whether a wrap
> should go when the primary method goes or whether it should stay. On the
> other hand there's whether the interface (args + result) is meddled with
> or not. I think the former is a functional difference, while the latter
> feels like a documentation issue because nothing happens with it at run
> time.

Yep, pretty close to right on.

> > BTW: did you read ruby-talk:86785?
>
> I read it, but not thoroughly. It's on my toread pile for when my mind
> unblanks.

Get to it when you can. I think there's a good idea in there that's related, 
basically the idea of singleton mixins.

-t0

P.S. By the way, I think we've certainly come along way already!




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