From: Peter Hickman Date: 2012-12-18T07:54:51+09:00 Subject: Re: Wondering About Flatiron School --e89a8fb1fd90a5434b04d114437f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Avi, its not that we are saying that you are not sincere in what you say (even though the language you use makes my skin crawl) or that you dont help motivated people get to grips with programming. The issue for us is that few, if any, employers will be swayed by a candidate that went on a course. Rails, much like Perl and PHP in this respect, is something that a programmer will have taught themselves because they were interested in it (rather than a mandatory module on their degree) and so the culture around it is of the self motivated, self taught programmer. Most of the people here perhaps, like myself, read the DrDobbs article on Ruby and started leaning Ruby or saw an article on a website that interested them enough to see what was in it. Waving certificates around like it means something is the province on 9 to 5 Java programmers who took up programming because they heard you could earn lots of money working for banks. If they had the chops they would have taken up accounting or law but they are either not smart enough or too lazy. These people collect certificates like talismans in lue of actual practical experience. You might not remember how it was with people becoming Microsoft Certified 'this and that' but not having the faintest idea as to how computers actually worked, thank god those days seem to have passed. If a CV landed on my desk with nothing more that "I paid $10k for a course and got a certificate" on it my first and last thought will be "you are a fool and I dont want anything to do with you" We have actually interviewed someone who taught themselves Rails and was building a Facebook clone with the code on github, Turns out that the crap code was his and the good bits were from his collaborator, but he did at least get as far as having an interview. Maybe I'm just old but I expect programmers to be self motivated and teach themselves things that they need or are interested in. I expect them to have tried to do something completely impractical and beyond their grasp for no better reason than it seemed like a good idea at the time. I expect them to have random fields of expertise because then just happened to get deeply interested in something they stumbled upon at some point. I expect them to have skills that are completely at odds with their jobs (a web developer who is also an expert in FPGA programming). Certificates are the opposite of this ethos. --e89a8fb1fd90a5434b04d114437f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Avi, its not that we are saying that you are not=A0sincere= =A0in what you say (even though the language you use makes my skin crawl) o= r that you dont help motivated people get to grips with programming. The is= sue for us is that few, if any, employers will be swayed by a candidate tha= t went on a course. Rails, much like Perl and PHP in this respect, is somet= hing that a programmer will have taught themselves because they were intere= sted in it (rather than a=A0mandatory=A0module on their degree) and so the= =A0culture around it is of the self motivated, self taught programmer. Most= of the people here perhaps, like myself, read the DrDobbs article on Ruby = and started leaning Ruby or saw an article on a website that interested the= m enough to see what was in it.

Waving certificates around like it means something is = the province on 9 to 5 Java programmers who took up programming because the= y heard you could earn lots of money working for banks. If they had the cho= ps they would have taken up accounting or law but they are either not smart= enough or too lazy. These people collect certificates like talismans in lu= e of actual practical experience. You might not remember how it was with pe= ople becoming Microsoft Certified 'this and that' but not having th= e faintest idea as to how computers actually worked, thank god those days s= eem to have passed.

If a CV landed on my desk with n= othing more that "I paid $10k for a course and got a certificate"= on it my first and last thought will be "you are a fool and I dont wa= nt anything to do with you"

We have actually interviewed someone who ta= ught themselves Rails and was building a Facebook clone with the code on gi= thub, Turns out that the crap code was his and the good bits were from his = collaborator, but he did at least get as far as having an interview.

Maybe I'm just old but I expect program= mers to be self motivated and teach themselves things that they need or are= interested in. I expect them to have tried to do something completely impr= actical and beyond their grasp for no better reason than it seemed like a g= ood idea at the time. I expect them to have random fields of expertise beca= use then just happened to get deeply interested in something they stumbled = upon at some point. I expect them to have skills that are completely at odd= s with their jobs (a web developer who is also an expert in FPGA programmin= g).

Certificates are the opposite of this= ethos.

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