From: Simon Kitching <simon@...>
Date: 2003-11-20T10:40:06+09:00
Subject: Re: "stereotyping" (was: Re: Strong Typing (Re: Managing metadata	about attribute types) )

On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 14:06, Austin Ziegler wrote:
> > Exactly my point. People are sticking with C++ where they could
> > really benefit from moving to a script language like Ruby, or
> > they're learning Java and they're stuck being C++/Java
> > programmers.
> 
> I somehow doubt it.

Well, I'm a senior developer/team leader. I have been considering moving
the team from "c" to ruby. However I have doubts that the lower-level
programmers can handle development without any type-checking support. So
we will probably move to either Java or c#.

That doesn't mean I don't like Ruby - personally, I love it. 

However I have noticed that I need to "read the source" far more often
than with Java libraries, and correctly interpreting the source requires
experience.


> >> It's not that I don't want to listen: it's that type checking
> >> doesn't help in the real world. Ruby is used in a number of real
> >> world large-scale projects.
> > No, it is not. Perhaps one day.
> 
> You don't know what you're talking about:
> 
>   http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?RealWorldRuby
> 
> One of the things not mentioned there is that Ruby is also used in
> the Amazon apparel store (see [ruby-talk:54605]). All of these have
> been done *without* type checking.

I think the referenced page proves the point pretty well. There is only
one entry there that I would consider of anything less than "minor"
scale:
> "We used Ruby to develop a complete Web Application Server and an
Object Oriented database"

All the others are one-person-three-month type projects.

Now I know that Python *has* been used to generate significant-sized
projects, and I have heard rumours that Smalltalk has also. I'm not sure
if any of those projects included run-of-the-mill programmers, like most
commercial projects will.

Can anyone give any example of dynamically-typed programming languages
used to develop apps of more than 12-man-months size, including
programmers with skills of a level typically found in commercial
companies?

I would love to do a comparative experiment myself; one team with Java
and one with Ruby. Just not sure the boss would fund it :-)

Regards,

Simon