From: ddet@... (Det)
Date: 2002-09-10T20:13:40+09:00
Subject: Re: Larry Wall's comments on Ruby

Austin Ziegler <austin@halostatue.ca> wrote in message news:<20020908044555.JCUL3718.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@hogwarts>...
> def fun(foo)
>     ...
> end
> 
> to me seems to be much cleaner than
> 
> fun(foo):
>     ...
> 
> or
> 
> sub fun(foo)
> {
>     ...
> }

whereas the latter will come up again with blocks.
(Haven't you ever seen this in Ruby? :

           }
         }
       }
     }
   }
)

When learning Python I first had problems with indentation,
as different editors handle tab and spaces different.
At least I got my jedit configured using 'spaces as tabs'
and found a vi option set useful for Python-writings.

I found reading Python sources as easy as reading 
formatted prosa text, without unnecessary end- or brace-chains
at the end.

BUT ... :

> even though they ultimately mean the same thing. From a computer's
> perspective, it's far easier to track scope with single-character
> symbols (and it helps with editor paren-matching, too); IMO, from a
> human's perspective it's far easier to track scope with meaningful
> tokens than merely by space (especially since a single space error
> can cause compile problems). 

.... at least I detected that I want to do text formatting
and indentation how and when I need it.

This was when I almost decided to use Python as my one-and-only 
language and looked to different use cases.
Oho! I learned that the typical Unix-Shell-One-Liners are 
very hard, if not impossible. (So I was attracted by ruby -e and
companion options).
I learned, that there exists indeed an embedded Python
(like php, eperl) but works only with some special syntax
add-ons and twists, because in this case you *need* to declare
where the end of a block is. (So I was attracted by eruby).

My result:  Ruby is the better choice for one-for-all.

And regarding teaching to novices:
Seeing that today in germany many teens learn the first
steps in programming just in the school (and *not* in
universitary context), it would be great to see that they
get familiar very early with the basic principles, also
that a block has a beginning and an end, like in the most
other languages they will encounter later.

(marginal note: I would prefer using script languages to
teach 'em programming, to have them learn basic subjects
from the first 'if' until 'use of tcp-sockets' instead
of only teaching a 'language' without principles or concepts.
Unfortunately in our schools the CS-lessons are given by
arithmetic teachers, which learned writing Java, and they
only teach their pupils writing Java.)

Bye

Dirk Detering  -aka Det