From: Sean Russell <ser@...>
Date: 2002-01-23T02:52:23+09:00
Subject: Re: RANT: Ruby GUI API

Albert Wagner wrote:

> On Monday 21 January 2002 11:15 am, you wrote:
>> 5) This may be affected by the Abstracted GUI API, as has been discussed.
....
> This is a bad idea:
> You end up here with a very weak GUI, using only shared features.

People believe this because of AWT.  Certainly, nobody's proven otherwise 
by creating a strong GUI, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible.  
Certainly, SWT is a step in the right direction, having both native widgets 
and a full-featured widget set.

> Why not go into it?  Do you have an agenda?  A very strong argument can be

Yeah, I'm a member of the TDL, the Tk-Defamation-League.  Our charter is to 
undermine and destroy Tk, and usurp its unholy power.

> made for Tk: (1) it's cross-platform, now  (2) It is probably the most
> powerful toolkit available.

(1) so are many other toolkits, and (2) I disagree.  Aside from the 
aethetics of the issue, Tk is unsuitable for large applications.  It was 
designed as a scripting GUI, and it shows.  Most of all, however, it 
doesn't integrate at all with the underlying GUI environment.  It has only 
rudimentary clipboard support.  But I'm really not interested in getting 
into a discussion about Tk.  I have no interest in Tk.  I've used it, and 
I've used applications written in it, and I've disliked both.  There isn't 
anything that can be said to make me change my mind about it, and I'm not 
interested in trying to convince you that Tk is bad. I *am* interested in 
an alternative, standard toolkit being distributed with Ruby, though.

I hope I'm not coming across as being combative, or denigrating; believe 
me, I'm not trying to be.

>> Windows and MacOS provided standard GUI  APIs, and they have prospered.
> 
> These are OSes, not languages.

I don't see how their being OSes has any bearing on my statement.  Would 
you please clarify what your point is?

>> KDE argument, remember that Gnome was a direct result of KDE and the Qt
>> license.)
> 
> I think your history is wrong.

Certainly, the GTK toolkit had been started before Gnome, but the Gnome 
project was started in response to KDE and KDE's popularity, so as to 
provide an OpenSource alternative to Qt, which, at the time, was not 
OpenSource.  I'd be happy to hear your alternative history.

>> the only way this will happen is if a toolkit is chosen and included with
>> every Ruby distribution.
> 
> Tk and Fox are both included.

Fox in not included with Ruby 1.6 Linux distribution.

Albert, I'm getting the feeling that you're taking my dislike of Tk 
personally.  I don't feel there is any need for you to be defensive or 
contradictory.  I'm interested in discussing including a standard toolkit 
with Ruby, and I'm not interested in settling for Tk.  Tk *is* currently 
distributed with Ruby, and if you are happy with it, then be joyous -- I'm 
happy for you.

--- SER