From: SonOfLilit Date: 2007-07-16T17:00:58+09:00 Subject: Re: I need serious help! ====== Hitler ====== Now it cannot get any worse. ----------------------- _ _.-~~.) _.--~~~~~---....__ .' . .,' ,'. . . . . . . . . .~- ._ ( ( .. .g. . . . . . . . . . .~-._ .~__.-~ ~`. . . . . . . . . . . -. `----..._ ~-=~~-. . . . . . . . ~-. ~-._ `-._ ~=_~~--. . . . . .~. | .~-.._ ~--._-. ~-. . . . ~-. \ .( ~~--.._~' `. . . . .~-. , `._\ ~~--.._ `. . . . . ~-. .- . ,'/ _ . _ . -~\ _ .. _ ~~--.`_. . . . . ~-_ ,-','` . ` ._ ~ ~--. . . . .~=.-'. /. ` - . -~ -. _ . - ~ - _ - ~ ~--..__~ _,. / \ - ~ . __ .. ~- ~~_. ( ` )`. _ _ `- .. - . . - ~ ~ . \ ~-` ` ` `. _ _by Seal _ - . ` . \ \ `. __ The dolphin was to draw everybody's attention. Listen, MINASWAN. You guys don't want a flame-war, right? I know Joe doesn't (he says that, and he responds very well to helpful advice that he understands as helpful). I don't (it was funny in the beginning, and it helped me get to know someone who I hope to be working with quite a lot (now I know what he does in life, where he is positioned socially, what he likes, etc') but then started to piss me off when I saw how much time people put into it that they could put instead into wonderful opensource projects that they wrote and I love to use. Let's end it, OK? Truce. .-. /___\ |___| |]_[| / I \ JL/ | \JL .-. i () | () i .-. |_| .^. /_\ LJ=======LJ /_\ .^. |_| ._/___\._./___\_._._._._.L_J_/.-. .-.\_L_J._._._._._/___\._./___\._._._ ., |-,-| ., L_J |_| [I] |_| L_J ., |-,-| ., ., JL |-O-| JL L_J%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%L_J JL |-O-| JL JL IIIIII_HH_'-'-'_HH_IIIIII|_|=======H=======|_|IIIIII_HH_'-'-'_HH_IIIIII_HH_ -------[]-------[]-------[_]----\.=I=./----[_]-------[]-------[]--------[]- _/\_ ||\\_I_//|| _/\_ [_] []_/_L_J_\_[] [_] _/\_ ||\\_I_//|| _/\_ ||\ |__| ||=/_|_\=|| |__|_|_| _L_L_J_J_ |_|_|__| ||=/_|_\=|| |__| ||- |__| |||__|__||| |__[___]__--__===__--__[___]__| |||__|__||| |__| ||| IIIIIII[_]IIIII[_]IIIIIL___J__II__|_|__II__L___JIIIII[_]IIIII[_]IIIIIIII[_] \_I_/ [_]\_I_/[_] \_I_[_]\II/[]\_\I/_/[]\II/[_]\_I_/ [_]\_I_/[_] \_I_/ [_] ./ \.L_J/ \L_J./ L_JI I[]/ \[]I IL_J \.L_J/ \L_J./ \.L_J | |L_J| |L_J| L_J| |[]| |[]| |L_J |L_J| |L_J| |L_J |_____JL_JL___JL_JL____|-|| |[]| |[]| ||-|_____JL_JL___JL_JL_____JL_J More ASCII art to make SURE to draw everyone's attention. I cannot force this conversation to end (many tried saying "stop feeding" before me and failed), so I will have to go for something better: ============================== From now on, only technical advice ============================== Guys, limit your posts to technical advice, like code samples, stories about your own forays into game programming as kids, links to interesting libraries, frameworks or languages (although I think Joe is on the right path with learning Logo turtle graphics, then computer science 101 with logo (the book I gave him goes as far as writing a BASIC interpreter!), then Ruby (it would be pretty simple to do turtle graphics with Ruby or to use _why's amazing HacketyHack, but I chose Logo as the most rewarding way IMHO and there's no reason to suddenly set him off that path). Joe, please only reply to what you see as technical advice. If something seems to insult you, email me privately and I will read it and see if it's a technical tip that you misunderstood (e.g. the UML tip) or flames, in which case - just drop it. That way, the Ruby mailing list will benefit from a great advice thread on something that interests young programmers very much, and Joe, you will benefit from advice only instead of wasting your time on flames, time you could have used to go to the gym, to hang out with your friends, to sleep (oh sweet sleep :P), to listen to great music or to... *ehm*... Well, not in this mailing list, I wouldn't think it's appropriate... "to have fun", yeah. If anyone was so insulted that he cannot just let it go, understanding that this flame war started with a silly misunderstanding caused by there being TOO MANY helpful guys in this list (and seriously, it's a misunderstanding I myself might have made, when I started programming). ============ To clarify that: ============ 1) Joe asked for advice on how to start programming so that he can eventually create a game. 2) Someone told him the standard reply: this and that good free book will teach you how to create simple programs like "Hello, world", and you can start from there and go into deeper and deeper grounds. However, be wary that a game like you want takes years of knowledge and years of coding for a whole team (I wish /I/ were told that when I started dreaming about creating computer games). 3) Joe said he's at it and thanked the guys who gave him those books, and then asked for something more visual-oriented. At this time he was reading Learn to Program and _why's, IIRC, and enjoyed them very much (both great books, I agree). 4) A few newcomers to the thread repeated the standard reply, AFTER Joe already followed it. 5) Joe got frustrated at having to do the same thing over and over, which is how he misread the repetition of the same advice (I also get pissed at that, like in math class when they give me the same kind of excersize again and again... I think all hackers are, aren't we? That's why we program: "programming will never be monotonous, since every time something is repetitive, we will simply automate it"). 6) A flame war ensued of over 200 messages. 7) A few people tried to give helpful useful advice but their voices were faint in the ruckus. 8) I gave a long piece of helpful advice tailored exactly to Joe's needs and personality (learn logo, learn actual programming with logo, always experiment with doing cool stuff, then talk to me again and I'll give you the next steps). 9) Joe became polite again, thanking me very much ( :) ) again and again ( :) ) and sending me warm and fuzzy-feeling-creating messages on how much he enjoys using abstractions ("to" clauses, Logo's methods) to create cool graphics. Accidentally, he replied to the list instead of to my private email as I intended (that's why I don't like ruby-forum, because people don't notice that it's actually a frontend to a mailing list). 10) People asked him not very politely (remember, flamewar tension) to take the discussion off list, and flames re-ensued. 11) THIS STOPS NOW. Thank you. _______ _____ __ _ _______ _______ _ _ _ _______ __ _ | | | | | \ | |_____| |______ | | | |_____| | \ | | | | __|__ | \_| | | ______| |__|__| | | | \_| This is me being over repetitive. Now as I said, let's turn this into a 100% technical advice thread. Aur