From: SonOfLilit <sonoflilit@...>
Date: 2007-02-13T05:33:39+09:00
Subject: Re: Getting my sister to learn programming

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On 2/12/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
>
> Well ... yes, but there are clear differences in the popularity of
> Common Lisp and Scheme. There is a lot of real-world software written in
> Common Lisp. Scheme, on the other hand, is primarily a pedagogical
> language. The most common non-pedagogical use for Scheme is as a
> "scripting language" for tools like TeXmacs. And that is most often done
> using the Guile implementation.


More important is "CAN it be used?". I think it can. Am I wrong?

What is it about MIT and wanting to build languages and computers for
> children? :)


You got a point there. Well, MIT seem to be the only guys around (funded by
research grants) that care about how humans can use computers better, and
that's part of it.

Seriously, though, I started programming for a living when
> APL was a gleam in someone's eye and Lisp 1.5 was the most advanced
> functional language you could actually get your hands on. My programming
> "childhood" was spent in the FORTRAN and macro-assembler world. I was
> sad to see Lisp "dumbed down to Logo for kids" and FORTRAN "dumbed down
> to BASIC for Dartmouth undergraduates". The other side of that coin,
> though, is that I was also sad to see the first really high quality
> computer for kids, the TI 99/4, die.
>
> My point remains that programming students who will go on to become
> programmers or electrical engineers or computer scientists or applied
> mathematicians or software engineers quickly outgrow things like Logo
> and Dartmouth BASIC.


I don't necessarily want my sister to become one of those. I want to give
her an important skill and a great hobby.

Myself, for example, though ALL of my previous work experience is as a
programmer (and so is my current half-job), I am studying Mechanical
Engineering. I love programming and it is my most regarded hobby, but I
wouldn't like to practice it as a hired employee.

Well ... despite the obvious pedagogical nature of Scheme in general and
> Dr. Scheme in particular, I'm leaning towards Ruby unless the goal is to
> prepare her for an academic career or something similar. Scheme isn't
> much used by professional programmers, and it isn't growing in
> popularity relative to other languages. Ruby, on the other hand, *is*
> growing in popularity and can do more things without having to build
> them from the ground up.


Again - if she'd want to build a real world application  in scheme, COULD
she?

One final note -- perhaps you can persuade Chris Pine and the good folks
> at Pragmatic Programmers that a Hebrew translation of "Learn to Program"
> is a good idea. Why should all the good Ruby books be in Japanese and
> English only?


With less than ten million Hebrew speakers worldwide, and all virtually all
Hebrew geeks fluent in English, I don't think so.

Nobody treated the issue of which would be better for a beginner syntax- and
concept-wise.

Any opinion?

Aur Saraf

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