From: Suraj Kurapati <snk@...>
Date: 2006-12-17T14:11:01+09:00
Subject: Re: does Ruby generate WINDOWS and dialog boxes?

David Vallner wrote:
> Suraj Kurapati wrote:
>> I don't know why people hate it so much. They seem to prefer "desktop 
>> integration" and eye-candy instead of clean, functional interfaces. 
>> Sigh. :-(
>> 
> 
> Some of us have to "sell" software, at least to managers - then it 
> matters.

Bingo! That's where we differ. I don't sell software so I haven't had to 
deal with market pressures and bosses and customers, etc. Thus, my claim 
might have more merit when viewed in the interest of programmer 
productivity/laziness.

> Also, you're missing the point. It's a GUI, noone really gives a damn if
> the programmer had an easier time coding it if there's hundreds of users
> that will feel constantly alienated by it because of some detail the
> programmer didn't feel like bothering with.

Alas, what a world we live in. The same goes for movies where the stars 
and director get a substantial chunk of the publicity/credit while the 
back-end sound engineer is largely ignored.

[...]

> Approaching user interface design with a
> programmer's mindset can only end in pain, tragedy, and Tk.

LOL good one. :-)

> Also, you're confusing internal UI consistency, and external UI
> consistency. Internal UI consistency is when the features of the UI fit
> together to make working with the software alone productive (your clean
> and functional).

Interesting.

> External consistency is when the UI incorporates features that make
> working with that software in connection with other software on the
> computer productive. This means panels will scroll when the mouse is
> over them and won't require clicking on the buttons. This means that the
> file chooser, on XP, will have a "My Documents" button as the third one
> in a button sidepanel on the left.

I don't use windows, so I'm quite satisfied with Tk's horrendous 
appearance and its lack of integration with "My documents". 
Nevertheless, I can understand your point of view and I do sympathize.

[...]

> However, the
> mindset of most Tk users seems to be to fight achieving external
> consistency kicking and screaming and inventing nonarguments to prove
> such patent nonsense as external consistence being undesirable. 
> (That's usually laziness, youthful zealotry,

Alright, you've caught me there :-)

> Also, to set you right. People, or at least I (the only part of "people"
> I can confidently speak for - for what part were you speaking and with
> how much confidence when you used the words "people" and "they" again? -
> obviously not yourself)

I do so with the confidence of uncertainty (probability = 0.5). When one 
does not know the world, one naturally assumes the world is like one's 
self. Alas, I   am but a frog in a well.

[...]

> David Vallner
> No Way Someone Reads This Whole

Thanks for the lesson.

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