From: David Pollak Date: 2006-05-05T22:27:55+09:00 Subject: Re: Sharp knives and glue ------=_Part_17073_22362572.1146835671312 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dan, Yes, this is an instance of the issues I was discussing. I think James Britt framed the issue perfectly in that it's a trade-off between (and I'm paraphrasing) freedom and security/costs. James and others on the list are of the opinion that freedom in the high order bit. For where Ruby is today, I think James has the right balance an= d that freedom should be the high order bit as folks come up with the next se= t of cool tools like ActiveRecord/Rails, etc. I am taking the position that as Ruby-based systems become more complex, th= e balance changes. The Glue/RMagick/Instiki load issues are hints of the issues that, I argue, will become more common as there are more libraries and more complexity in the Ruby/Rails/whatevers-next code bases. One post drew the analogy to the danger of meta-programming and the danger of C/C++ pointers. I think it's a perfect analogy. Pointers are amazingly powerful, when used correctly. Unfortunately, they were sometime mis-used which led to nasty program failures and they were ultimately bannished from the successor languages to C/C++ (Java, C#). I think meta-programming should stay part of Ruby. I also think that Ruby should evolve (either through libraries or the runtime with switches, etc) to guard rails around meta-programming so that it's power can be used correctly. Thanks, David PS -- To avoid being branded a troll, this will be my last post in this thread. I'm happy to discuss this issue privately. PPS -- I appologize to folks if they think I wasn't listening to their poin= t of view. If you think I've wronged you, please send me a note. PPPS -- For those who think I don't know anything about meta-programming, please review the presentation I gave on meta-programming at the Silicon Valley Ruby Conference ( http://dppruby.com/dppsrubyplayground/files/Preso.ppt) and check out a Domain Specific Language I wrote using Ruby ( http://rubyforge.org/projects/sitemap) PPPPS -- For those who question my programming skills, if you're using OS X= , open Mesa and look at the credits. I wrote Mesa among other award winning, highly stable commercial applications. On 5/5/06, Liquid wrote: > > Hi All, > > I don't really want to get into this discussion too much. I'm too new to > really contribute and this thread is probably a bit confrontational for > me, > I just have a question that I would like some clarification on if > possible. > > When using ruby on Windoze the RMagick gem can cause a lot of trouble. > Apparently it redefines some things in the String class. The long and > short > of it is that many ppl find it difficult/impossible to use the file_colum= n > plugin with Rails under windoze. > > My question is, list/David, is this the situation that David is talking > about? > > Thanx for any clarification. > > Cheers > > Dan > > On 5/5/06, Leslie Viljoen wrote: > > > > On 5/5/06, Kirk Haines wrote: > > > > > > On Thursday 04 May 2006 5:37 pm, James Britt wrote: > > > > > > > Right. And in those cases it may make sense to use a different > > > > language. Various degrees of security often come with correspondin= g > > > > development costs. For me, those day-to-day costs aren't justified > > for > > > > what I write; the pros and cons of Ruby work out quite well. But= , > > > > just as one might prefer C to Ruby when speed is the main concern, = a > > > > different language might be called for to satisfy other needs. > > > > > > > > Better to change languages than to change Ruby. > > > > > > Just as a data point, while what I produce are not large team, high > > > dollar, > > > multiyear projects (though I would love the opportunity to take on > such > > a > > > task), I make the vast majority of my income writing software, in > Ruby, > > > for > > > customers in the financial, construction, and environmental sectors o= f > > > business. I've been doing this for four years. Some of the software > is > > > web > > > related, and some is more related to issues of data handling, storage= , > > > transfer, and transformation. > > > > > > > > How big is your team? Do you use any XP methodologies, or would you giv= e > > us an idea of what methodologies you do use? How big are the programs > > you have written? > > > > Les > > > > > > -- -------- David Pollak's Ruby Playground http://dppruby.com ------=_Part_17073_22362572.1146835671312--