From: Hugh Sasse Date: 2005-10-12T19:45:55+09:00 Subject: Re: verifying proper vim-ruby install ---559023410-684387517-1129113626=:23927 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-684387517-1129113626=:23927" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-684387517-1129113626=:23927 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Nikolai Weibull wrote: > Gavin Sinclair wrote: > >> Mark Volkmann wrote: [...] > >> I created that list and intended it to be for developers. User >> questions are welcome on the list, but I reckon user questions (of the >> vim-ruby stuff) are welcome on this list as well. I think it's [...] > > That assumes that every project maintainer/developer actually listens to > ruby-talk. A year ago I couldn=E2=80=99t, as it was being blocked by a > anti-spam service that shall remain nameless. A definite pain, agreed, but there are other access methods. > >> And I don't echo the RTFM stuff, either. A question from a reasonable >> person means something wasn't clear to a user that was clear to a >> developer. The sensible resolution: developer thanks user and tries >> to make the software clearer in what it's doing, or whatever. So >> thanks, Mark. > > How was this clear to a developer? Dealing with Vim and its runtime If a developer/documenter didn't document it they must have thought it sufficiently clear for the reasonable person. > files isn=E2=80=99t the most easy task one can undertake. Understanding = why this is why there are so many questions [and below]. I'm still not clear what is really going on with Vim's startup, and I conclude that it must be the simplest thing that actually works, but I'm still baffled after reading the docs. There's so much of it. > something doesn=E2=80=99t work for another user even less so. Fine, my R= TFM > was perhaps uncalled for, but I do believe that the Vim documentation > mentions a lot of the stuff you need to know to get vim-ruby working and > the INSTALL, README, and vim-ruby-install.rb files mention the rest. > Apparently we must now also mention how to verify a successful > install...were does it end? Support never does (until the package dies). Murphy's law originated with people's ability to misunderstand instructions, IIRC. > > But fine, I=E2=80=99ll bow out of this one, as I=E2=80=99m not responsibl= e for that part > of the project. > > And by the way, I haven=E2=80=99t been paid a cent for any of my work, so= excuse > me if I don=E2=80=99t feel that I have the energy to thank every user and= answer > every question. The only thank you=E2=80=99s I=E2=80=99ve gotten were af= ter I flew off > the handle last time and more or less demanded them [ruby-talk: 143461]. I sympathise, and conclude that this is probably symptomatic of the frustrations people are "expected" to have with computers: they get used to complaining about things.... > I realize that that=E2=80=99s the way open-source development works, but = fuck, > it=E2=80=99s really quite ungrateful work as it is without having to deal= with > people who sound as if they haven=E2=80=99t poked around a bit before ask= ing > questions. Agreed. I don't think anyone has found a solution for this.=20 > >> Finally, Nikolai mentioned familiarity with Unix as a prerequisite for >> using vim-ruby. I'm sure people who use Vim on Windows (like me) will >> be a little surprised. > > =E2=80=9CUnix directory structures=E2=80=9D was the actual quote. I beli= eve the layout > is the same on Windows, substituting folder for directory (thanks Bill > for that one). :-) > > Something that should perhaps been taken off-list: > > I guess my grief stems from an overall dislike for the over-inflated > importance of the vim-ruby project as a separate entity. As all (?) the > files are included in the Vim distribution anyway, why not just keep it > there? So far, this separation has made us miss an important release, Because Bram can't be expected to know every language intimately? And for most vim users language-specific problems will look like noise? Keeping it close to Ruby means that the problem domain is well understood. As perfection is approached, so less modifications need doing to the files, moving it over to the vim list looks better. I'm fairly sure that the project was started to solve things for frustrated rubyists who were not being served well by the vim list. With vim subleties playing off against ruby subtleties, the project will always feel alien wherever it lives. > namely 6.3, that contained the old files instead. The 6.3 release will > finally be superseded by 6.4, but that=E2=80=99s been over a year of ques= tions > regarding what files to use, how to install, and a general confusion > over what=E2=80=99s going on. This is why there is a flurry of vim noise now, so we can get this right before 6.4 comes out. Of course, there'll be some more when it does come out, but hopefully only for a short while. > > To me, _the sensible resolution_ would be to merge the vim-ruby project > with mainline Vim so that there won=E2=80=99t be any need for RTFMs from = me or > =E2=80=9CHow do I install vim-ruby=E2=80=9D from users, > nikolai (25 years old and ready for anger management to save his > poor heart) I could do with that as well, I expect. Thank you Hugh ---559023410-684387517-1129113626=:23927-- ---559023410-684387517-1129113626=:23927--