From: Kirk Haines <khaines@...>
Date: 2005-07-19T01:55:58+09:00
Subject: Re: Ruby momentum?

On Monday 18 July 2005 9:52 am, James Britt wrote:

> Successfully as compared to what? As with some other Rails hype, there
> is no real way to prove or disprove the assertion.

Successful as compared to many, many open source projects that have something 
good to recommend them, but never see daylight outside of smaller communities 
of users.

> Why not?  There are numerous simple, factual claims one can make about
> RoR that would have no problem getting anyone's attention.

I'm not disputing that.

> Not sure how turning people off from Ruby and the Ruby community is a
> success for anyone.  Maybe it's  a matter of numbers; lose some folks,

I don't think _any_ strategy is going to be 100% successful.  A lower key 
approach may, for instance, attract fewer people, but negatively influence 
fewer people, as well.  David's approach is a more emotionally charged one.

> but gain many more.  I have a hard time believing Ruby and Rails need
> churlish trash talk or extravagant, unverifiable claims to be
> successful, or that many in the Ruby community want to this as a means
> of promotion.  It's what (supposedly) sets this community apart.

And to be clear, I am in a it of a devil's advocate position here.  I'm not a 
fan of the way these things have been promoted personally, and I personally 
don't use Rails both for personal and for technical reasons (it wouldn't work 
for what I do).  But I do respect David's accomplishments.  I do think that 
in the long run there's a lot more good than harm to come from his 
strategies, even though I can quibble with how well I like or dislike the 
specific strategies, and I do think there are things that can be learned from 
both the successes and the failures of those strategies.

As a discussion of advertising, it boils down to whether fostering strong 
emotional reactions, sometimes well beyond what facts can support, is a valid 
approach or not.

As a Ruby discussion, though, I think it's important to look past all of that 
to the reason why so many people who have never touched Ruby before are 
liking Rails.  It's not because of Rails, itself.  It's because of Ruby.  
Rails has some magic and convenience and nifty things to make the developer's 
life simpler, but it's the Ruby that converts these PHP and Java guys to 
using it.  And when they show off their accomplishments to others, it's the 
Ruby that's going to hook them as well, and I think that's a win for 
everyone, even if the walk to get there was filled with some exaggerated 
emotionalism.


Kirk Haines