From: Alex the_mindstorm Popescu Date: 2005-04-29T07:08:59+09:00 Subject: Re: Ruby and IDE >-----Original Message----- >From: Austin Ziegler [mailto:halostatue@gmail.com] >How many of your 2000 classes are *useful* classes that do >real work? How many of your 2000 classes are necessary because >of the nightmare that is Java enterprise application >programming? (When I looked at "Code Generation in Action", I >was amazed at how many classes had to be generated for a >single table/view combination.) > Are we questioning here the value of the project? Hmmm... I think this will not solve anything. But if you want to go this way let's compaire: No of. classes: (except generated code): aprox.2000 Total SLOC: aprox. 600k Time of development: 5 years Team: 10-12 people Investment: aprox. 1.5 mil.$ Do we still compare? I think there no point in such a comparison. There is also no point in comparing Java (language at choice) and Ruby capabilities. I was talking (in fact asking) about editors/ides. >Then you are interpreting this incorrectly, at least for Ruby. >You can use any editor to work with Ruby. Yes I know this. I am not talking about writing code in notepad ;-). Surely you can do that. But efficiency is something very important. >There is some >support for Ruby in the major cross-language IDEs, but Ruby is >a notoriously difficult language to provide full IDE capabilities for. > This is the point I have agreed from the beginning. Still I believe that with the right effort, something can be done. > >Mmmm. I don't necessarily agree. An IDE can help, certainly, >with things that are difficult to remember often. An IDE can >also provide an environment for bad code. In the Java world, >an IDE is almost certainly necessary to deal with the idiocies >behind the library design. In the MS world, an IDE is almost >certainly necessary to deal with the massive API set (and some >of the idiocies behind the library design). > >In Ruby, I think that an IDE is much less necessary and >useful. Code completion is very unlikely to be possible on a >Ruby IDE, at least inasmuch as developers have come to expect >with IDEs for statically typed languages. > >Can you point me to a Python IDE or three? I'd like to look at >them to see if they come close to what VisualStudio can do, even, for >C++. > I am not doing development with Python, but a branch of my co. is using Komodo (ActiveState if I remember well) and they are happy with it. Take a look. [Christian Neukirchen] > Well, you obviously forgot that Java forces you to use one file per class (or did they change that stupid requirement recently?). >I couldn't deal with 2000 files in Emacs either, but 35 files and the same LOC would be no problem (esp. as you focus on a handful at once >only). :-) sorry I don't get you. I can obviously write down a 50k source, but is this the solution? No it is not. Every language has its own stuff. I was not asking about doing Java dev with Ruby. Still I can assume there are projects that are bigger than 50 sources. [Ben Giddings] I agree with many of the things you are saying. You could still use emacs for other stuff editing, and still have a powerful Ruby env. Not everybody is switching languages all the time during development. I was looking from this perspective. [Thursday] I am developing in Java (where I have a lot of choices), C++ (Visual Studio), a little Perl (vim, but I know ActiveState has powerfull support here). I cannot enumerate any other languages and their prefered envs, as I think this is mainly a personal stuff. Let me explain my thoughts again: 1/ I am not questioning the power of a language vs its tool support. I think I can find good points/bad points everywhere. Any ratio comparison will not help. There will be always very large projects. 2/ I am not questioning the correctness of a project design. 3/ I agree dynamic typed languages are hard to support features from static typed languages. Pls read John Wells' answer. There is value in there ;-). 4/ I see the power in vim (and believe the guys talking about Emacs power). I am only saying that I feel something more can be done. (I don't want to fall into that troll - Ilia stuff here. I am sorry I don't think/feel as you. At any point you can say that I must stop and I will. I respect everybody and everybody's work). cheers, --:alex |.::the_mindstorm::.|