From: Francis Hwang Date: 2004-11-04T00:15:53+09:00 Subject: Re: [OT] US Presidential Election On Nov 2, 2004, at 2:28 PM, Corey wrote: > On Tuesday 02 November 2004 07:54 am, Francis Hwang wrote: >> The centrist committees who control >> most of the money in the Republican and Democratic parties are not, in >> fact, sitting around wringing their hands about somebody like you. >> > > I'm not sitting around wringing my hands about what the centrist > committees think about me. > > Secondly, I have to strongly disagree with you here: it seems quite > apparent and logical that people like me ( i.e. conscientious > objectors ) > are a _real_ and _serious_ threat to the Status Quo. You think all > the massive reams of propaganda regarding the elections, voting, > "democracy", "freedom", and all that B.S. is accidental? > > What happens to the illusion when less than 50% of the country > turns out to vote? Less than 30%? You have a much more idealistic assessment of the legitimacy requirements of political power in the United States than I do. I think that if there were a massive flu and you had a national election with only 2% turnout, I think the people who were elected would just say "tough shit" and continue governing. They'd continue to write laws. They'd continue to levy taxes. They'd continue to send soldiers into war. >> But on a practical level, your non-vote is going to get counted as >> one more voice that doesn't count. >> > > This reasoning is repeated often, by many different sources, and still > makes absolutely no sense to me. > > My "voice" isn't hoping to "count", and I'm not hoping to be counted - > I'm just living my life as best I can within the realms of my own > conscience. And I'll continue to do so; I'm not trying to change the > world, I'm just trying to live; I'll help others to live only through > my > own abilities and resources and inclinations. > > Simplifying things down to a more personal level, my act of not voting > should be seen as a direct and explicit gesture of comraderie towards > you and everyone else - I'm not attempting to utilize a tool of massive > power and destruction ( the government ) in order to force _you_, or > anyone else, into complying with _my_ desires. I wish that you would > grant me the same respect, and likewise refuse to vote. Honestly, though, you and I just disagree on a matter like this. And although you're voicing your opinion here in a way that's interesting and persuasive, there are a lot of people who won't ever hear it until it's backed up by a little more significance than just one guy on a mailing list. The U.S. is too big of a country to listen, you know? I mean, if I keep voting (and volunteering and donating and marching and so on) and you keep not voting, whose voice do you think is going to be heard more? >> Why note go to the polls and vote for Badnarik? Or another third-party >> candidate? Such a vote would get a third party one step closer to >> getting a little help with advancing their cause next time 'round. >> > > This is part of The Great Illusion[tm] - the "baby steps towards > political > reform" idea. It's a limp and demonstratably false premise. Absolutely > ZERO civil liberties of any truly significant level has ever happened > in this > country through the ballot, but only through prolonged and massive > civil > unrest. A curious thesis. Do you think then, that the 1860 election of Abraham Lincoln had nothing to do with black slaves gaining some civil liberties? Or that the presence of Kennedy and then Johnson in the White House in the 1960s had nothing to do with the descendants of those black slaves receiving even more civil liberties, such as the extension of voting rights, or the legal destruction of the KKK under the auspices of the Civil Rights Act? Personally, I'd say that any sort of progress has to be made from below and from above at the same time. Which is why progress is pretty damned hard. >> Unless you've decided to exercise your political power in another way. >> And no, blogging and writing on a mailing list doesn't count. >> > > I don't pay taxes either. I simply don't file. Does that count? > > And yes, blogging and writing on a mailing list, and speaking to > friends > and family and those who care to listen, _does_ count. > > So does civil-disobedience, and the sort of active-nonparticipation > that > I do on a personal level everyway that I can. > To be more specific, what I meant was exercising your power in a way that involves being organized. And while I don't mean to diminish the importance of freely expressing your opinion, I really don't think it's enough. We're not in a repressive regime here like China or North Korea. Speech by itself is not very powerful. In this country, we don't repress difficult speech, we just ignore it. But I'm curious, Corey: How did you get the idea of tax resistance? Did you hear about it online, or do you know other people who are doing the same thing? I've known people who were tax resisters (mostly pacifists opposed to military spending) but it's not the sort of thing that I hear a lot about these days. F.