From: Corey Date: 2004-11-03T18:15:22+09:00 Subject: Re: [OT] US Presidential Election On Tuesday 02 November 2004 10:59 pm, Bill Kelly wrote: > From: "Corey" > > Finally, taxation occurs on services, not products - so your whole bike > > analogy was already flawed to begin with. > > I don't regard it as flawed, since it was intended to > satirize the notion that one should expect to be able > decree by personal fiat what one will contribute toward > some service provided by another entity. > ...what one will contribute toward some service that is _forcibly_ provided by another entity. "We have all decided that you will do this." If you don't see any problem with that, then we're on totally different wavelengths. Which is probably why there's such a disconnect. Are you hoping to understand my personal views and practices, or is your purpose to debate them? At any rate, it looks like this whole OT thread is beginning to die, so I don't want to continue adding noise to the list beyond this last post. > Sure, you've argued that you didn't get to CHOOSE the > services provided, - but (assuming you're in the USA), > we live in a representational democracy. A democratic > republic. > No, we live in a Plutocracy. A particular form of Plutocracy which has been extremely successfull in _posing_ as a Representative democracy. I think I got it: we live in a "Capito-Plutocratic, Federal Republican Quasi-Representative Pseudo-Democracy". Hell yeah, I think that just about sums it up. I sure am proud to be an American. > Just because you wish the government spent > its money more wisely, more efficiently, and only on > things you don't object to---gawd, what taxpayer doesn't > wish that?---doesn't mean the government is obligated > to poll each citizen for their personal preferences on > how funds are to be allocated. The government isn't _obligated_ to do _anything_ that it doesn't want to do. Likewise, I am not _obligated_ to do _anything_ the government wants me to do. But might makes right, the masses are stupid, and the government has a monopoly on force - so I'll lose everytime. But I'm not such a coward, nor am I such a hypocrite to my own ideals of liberty, that I would simply give up in the face of such adversity. Besides, I wasn't asking that the government poll me... I was just hoping to at least receive an accurate itemized account of precisely everything it has decided to spend my money on... > That might be a > democracy, but that ain't what we got. > You're right - that ain't what we got by any stretch of the imagination. So we agree on at least one thing. But I get the impression that by your view, I should just get over it. Or I should at least be a good little subject and pay my taxes. You may also think that I should vote and write my friendly neighborhood congress man in order to exercise my rights. I don't agree with you. My neighborhood's congress man is not _my_ congress man, and the president of the country I happen to live in is not _my_ president -- regardless of whether a bunch of strangers anonymously voted for the guy. > You called not paying taxes a form of civil-disobedience, > and asked whether it counted as a way of exercising > your political power in some way other than voting, > which you termed, "the most thoroughly passive, inane, > non-productive and uneventful form of political action > that a person could possibly do." > I'm a libertarian-socialist, aka - anarchist. I believe in mutual aid, direct action, voluntary associations, and labor's ownership of the means of production. I also believe in non-violence, and that active non-participation and civil disobedience is a legitimate and just method towards expressing one's own Rights. I don't believe that I need to form a majority amongst others in order to pursue Liberty - I can do that on my own, and with friends and family and through solidarity with fellow like-minded people. I don't believe that my ideals are best for everyone, but I fully realize my Rights to live according to natural law and my own good conscience so long as I do not interfere with those same Rights of all other people. > I don't buy it, because you are *counting* on your form > of civil-disobedience to go unnoticed. > You don't have do buy it. I'm not selling anything. I'm not trying to change the world. But I never indicated that I was _counting_ on being unnoticed, though I'm perfectly satisfied going unnoticed. Being noticed is not my goal. My civil-disobedience is personal - its only goal is to allow myself the freedom of pursuing my own conscience and moral convictions as much as is possible. > What do you do with the money you save? > It mostly goes toward pizza and beer. What do you do with whatever money _you_ save? Actualy, that's a personal question, and none of my damned business - so please don't bother answering. I really don't care what you do with your money, but I sure hope you're able to hold on to as much of it as you're able - especially if you actualy work for it like most of us have to do. Time is precious. > > It really comes down to simple ethics when we actually get down to it. > > Um, yeah. An ethics of convenience, sounds like. > Ok - if that's what you want to call it. I just call it ethics. My ethics may be different than yours. I assume no control or influence over your ethics - you are free to pay the taxes that have been assigned to you. I promise to never make you stop paying taxes or voting for representatives. Kind regards, Corey -- Don't feed the government.