From: Austin Ziegler <halostatue@...>
Date: 2004-08-17T06:23:10+09:00
Subject: Re: About ruvi

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:35:12 +0900, vruz <horacio.lopez@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> I think that a whole bunch of people need to settle down and stop
>> pretending that this is a free speech issue -- and I'm not just
>> referring to ruvi
> I can't respond for "a bunch of people", but since you have
> replied to my previous email I understand you are talking to me.

Not only you.

>>> Now, let's all repeat: "Free Speech, Free Speech, Free Speech"
>> A number of folks from #ruby-lang have used this defence in the
>> last couple of weeks. Here's a clue: free speech doesn't work
>> that way.
> Again, I'm not a number of folks, if you have something to say
> about my post, I'm glad to discuss it.

Frankly, your "free speech" comment was as value-free as could have
been. It meant absolutely nothing.

>> Free speech includes taking responsibility for one's words. There
>> are no moderators on ruby-talk or clr. Absolutely no one has
>> suggested that the people involved stop releasing software or
>> talking about it on the list.
[...]
> I honestly feel different than you do regarding this issue, and
> you're right, it's not just about this thread, but about the
> general ambience in the ML.

> There are many subtle ways to impose opinions, and I still believe
> some people do that pretty consistently.

Yes, but hiding behind a blanket statement of "free speech" isn't
the way to combat that. It doesn't mean what you think it means.

> Strictly speaking about Freedom of Speech:
> To me, anyone telling another person "don't say that", "don't
> claim that", or "don't do that" is some kind of censorship.

Utter bollocks. Not that you believe that -- that's factual. But
your belief is about 37 degrees off reality here, and I'll thank you
not to claim that "censorship" means what you said above, because
censorship generally means the suppression of information. There can
be social pressures that resemble censorship (e.g., the social
pressure on this list not to spam its members, or not to act like a
complete ass, or to discuss primarily Ruby), but they are not
censorship in and of themselves. Nothing that Hans, Gavin, or anyone
else said is censorship by any reasonable definition.

> My only intent was to raise some awareness of the power words can
> have on people's egos, attitudes and incentivation.

Then say that -- don't claim that it's a free speech issue. Nothing
was said that impinged upon Alexander's ability to continue to work
on ruvi. Indeed, I've said harsher words to others who continue to
participate in this forum.

I'm not trying to be difficult here -- it's very important that we
be explicit and accurate in our phrasings especially as there are so
many participants whose first language is not English. Moreover, for
those people whose native country is not the USA, the concept of
"free speech" is different than the absolute free speech concept in
the US (and this is not a bad thing).

In my chosen country (I am a native of the US, but I have chosen to
take citizenship in Canada), free speech is seen as having limits --
more than just those offered by slander, libel, and incitement.
responsibility for one's own words. There is a question of balance
(there are often publication bans related to trials, and those are
often challenged), but it's *not* a question of censorship in
general.

-austin
-- 
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
               * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca